Daisy attacked Baby!.... When will the fighting END!!!

[Canis-Lupess]

Behaviourists are now saying that dogs do not try to dominate their human owners like they used to think they do.
After researching what some of the leading experts had to say, it seems most of them now agree on this. In fact, Peter Neville said in an interview that when students are taking the pet behaviourists course, they aren't even allowed to use the word dominant anymore.

Even if that was so, the heirachy does not stop at leader. It goes all the way down and if the dogs do not know where they stand with each other, they will fight until they do...
This can lead to death where humans are concerned and their inadvertent interfering stops the dogs from resolving their problems.
Even if the dogs know they aren't leader, that doesn't mean they aren't going to try and climb the ladder. How do you think dogs get to be leader to start with? Also, it isn't all about being leader, it is about having more privileges. With rank comes privilege. If you can take no. 2s place and have their privileges even though you aren't no. 1, you will do it.

It is well known in a pack that most of the fighting takes place between no.s 2 and 3. No. 1 (alpha) is surprisingly tolerant and not involved in much bickering because his status is clear. Nobody dare challenge him. Most arguments take place further down the ranks and thats what is happening here.
If a clear cut ranking order is not established between the dogs and they are treated as equals, they will continue to fight until one comes out on top.

Dogs do not do equality. It isn't a case of human in charge and then dogs all equal underneath them. Dogs do not work like that. The three females with the issue need to know where their place in accordance to each other.
Once the highest of the three doesn't feel threatened by the second because their status has been lowered, she will not attack. She has no reason to. Same goes for second with third.

You can establish your dominance over the dogs all you want but that will never prevent them fighting between themselves over who is going to be no.s 2, 3 and 4 and being no. 1 isn't the only position that dogs fight over as some people seem to mistakenly believe.

[tikeyas_mom]

I have a feeling alot of Daisys problem has to do with her genetics and her puppyhood. I did contact a dog trainer today, she told me that if Daisy was spoiled as a young pup (treated like a person and not a dog, and coddled when she was affraid) She will act out in fear aggression.
She may have just attacked Baby because she was affraid that Baby might attack her first. She also said that if it has anything to do with genetics then Daisy is pretty much beyond help.. She said that once genetics have written a personality pattern in the dogs brain it cant be changed..
She also said that Fear aggression is the hardest type of aggression to cure. She said that Daisy may never be the confident dog I want her to be.
I am setting up a private consult with this trainer for next week, its 50$ for her to meet Daisy and get to know her a little bit. Hopfully this trainer will be able to help us.

[Giselle]

It's true that the pack does not consist of one alpha and the rest being apathetic subordinates. However, in a pack of more than three dogs, the pack will generally fluctuate on a regular basis. And if we try to set into concrete our dogs' positions, we are essentially creating frustration. The beta dogs are in a continual fight for better positions and their position is always liquid, so to treat the dogs in a linear order can't be good. If one day, Dog 1 wins dominance over Dog 2, but you treat Dog 2 higher than Dog 1, there's probably going to be a scuffle that day. I dunno. The more I see the more I just don't agree with treating one dog higher over another =/

Anyhow, I really hope you find the root of the problem. But if it turns out that the dogs will always be fighting in this situation, re-homing wouldn't be a bad or irresponsible idea. I know it's a terrible idea, but I'm scared the dogs will still be fighting with one another when the baby arrives.

[Canis-Lupess]

Doing this sorted out my dogs issues and they never had them again....so it can be good.

Dogs only come into conflict if they manage to raise their status to become too equal to the one above them and then try to challenge them for their position. If the dogs are treated in a way that stops them from raising their status, this won't happen. Also, many fight take place simply because the humans actually raise a lower dogs status. A dog who would remain lower if it was just for the other dogs. I bet if those three females were wild dogs, there wouldn't be the amount of fighting that there is living in a home with humans and, if there was, most of them would be simply quick scuffles with no injuries inflicted.
I know this technique is used by top behaviourists. In fact, I first read of this idea in one of John Fishers books. He has now passed on but he was one of the top pet behaviourists in the world and many U.S behaviourists learnt from him.

Still, as even he was having doubts as to the dominance thing between dog and human before he died, I don't think that the owner establishing dominance over the dogs would make any difference. It is now accepted that they view us as different and not part of their pecking order and do not try to dominate us as such.
When they show aggression towards us or misbehave, it is more about simply trying to protect resources that they are used to having and don't want to have taken from them. Obviously, they only do this with things they've had or have....not with things they've never had but would like to have. Thats what makes them different from people. The resources are not all tangible either as in objects like food or toys...it can account for any kind of aspect or a dogs life.

[CathyBogart]

This is a temporary solution and not a substitute for training (I know you already know that t_m, I just feel compelled to throw it in in case anyone gets the wrong idea) but when Star's aggression started to peak we put her on Clomepramine for a few months while we worked with her. It seemed to make it easier for her to tolerate Wilbur's presence, and it took the "edge" off of her enough that we were able to, over about eight months, work with her on some of her issues. I think we may have ended up having her PTS without it, she bit several people.

[wolfsoul]

Jynnelle, I have a $100 certificate for agility classes on the Westside. I'll give it to you and after the baby is born and you have a set schedule you can take Daisy to class.
I find that for dogs that are genetically messed up, it works wonders and builds so much confidence. I've taken classes with some really dog-aggressive dogs and there are definatly ways around it when teaching, and I've taken classes with dogs that lack so much confidence and you should have seen them at the end. The best one was this very nervous GSD. She was so slow and careful about everything she did, and was stuck to her owner like glue -- she wouldn't move ahead, and it took her ages to finally do the teeter as it's probably the scariest obstacle. But at the end of classes she was moving ahead of her owner, wagging her tail, doing the teeter slowly but surely, and was actually happy. The owner said her confidence at home was so much better as well, she wasn't as afraid of people and she was actually approaching what she was afraid and checking it out of instead of just running and hiding. I think it would help Daisy so much.

I am not sure what to think about the pack order because it seems like Tikeya and Baby fight for dominance, and Daisy and Baby fight for dominance, but Tikeya and Daisy would never fight in a thousand years. So wo really IS top dog?? I think they are a little confused too lol.

[tikeyas_mom]

Thanks so much Jordan!! I would love to get that certificate from you!! Shaun and I have been thinking about putting Daisy in dog agility for a while. Because she is so fast and agile, she would be awesome at it.. If she wasnt so affraid.. If you think it might help her confidence, then thats just great!! Because as of now I would try anything, and I have always wanted to put one of my dogs in Agility.