Daisy attacked Baby!.... When will the fighting END!!!

[tikeyas_mom]

Maybe 5 dogs is just too many with your living situation and the certain dogs you have.. I vaguely remember in the last Attack post that you had mentioned you'd be moving out sometime.. And that will definitely help end all of this stress. Maybe you could separate the dogs by baby gates or something.. Not sure what kind of house you are in.. but maybe one group upstairs, and one group downstairs.. Something like that so they wouldn't all be together, at least until they can get along.

Yes, we are definatley looking to move out ASAP. But, as of now we haven't found one place for rent that will allow our three dogs. Alot of home owners have turned us down as soon as they hear we own a Pitbull. I have already tried to seperate the dogs with a baby gate but, since we spend most of our time upstairs the dogs HATE it when they are confined to the basement. They just enmd up jumping the gate, or knocking it over to get upstairs. They are part of the family, and crating, or locking them away from everyone just doesnt really seem fair to us..

[Seravieve]

I totally understand having troubles finding a place that will allow dogs.. muchless three of them. And I know.. they do tend to jump the baby gate.. just a thought. We use one at night to keep the dogs upstairs.. but otherwise, if we are downstairs and we lock them up there, Zeke will jump it.. A behaviorist might help.. just seems that all dogs are different. Jealousy might have played into it.. and Daisy seeing her as the weak one in the group..

Sounds like you're between a rock and a hard place.. shoot. I have my fingers crossed for no more dog fights in your household!

[Catty1]

In Calgary, the Humane Society has a list of pet-friendly rentals; try your local ones. Having some letters of reference from your vet and/or a past landlord can't hurt either.


Also, how about placing an "Accomodation Wanted" ad? You can spell out your situation, offer references on the dogs (if you can get them, or offer to pay a small extra deposit or something). That way, if and when someone calls, they'll already know what the deal is with pets. (If the pittie has been with you since puppyhood, that's good to mention).

HUGS

[Canis-Lupess]

Splitting dogs up in the same home where there are unresolved issues is not a wise idea because this prevents the dogs from ever resolving the isssue and, if they come into contact again, they'll carry on where they left off. It's not really a viable option and any pet behaviourist would probably advise against it.

The problem seems to be that the pecking order is not stable between the female dogs and this is what they are trying to sort out.
Sometimes, the way the human owners treat the dogs can create more confusion and, in turn, more aggression in order to try and create a stable heirachy.

There is one female who is obviously not interested in climbing the ladder or is too submissive to want to try. It's the others really that things need to change more with.
You need to decide who is naturally the most doominant and has the advantage over the others and then who comes second, then third. You might need to watch the dogs for a few days to see how they act around each other generally. The signs are often very subtle so look carefully.

Once you've found out the order they presently seem to be in even though it sounds like things are a little too evenly matched and are probably made more unstable by the inconsistent way in which they are treated by the humans of the house, you need to emphasize this by treating them as such. no. 1 gets fed first, fussed first, groomed first, even let off and put on lead first when walked and generally treated as higher thanking than no. 2 by yourselves. This must involve every person in the house. Obviously, they need to know you are boss although this dominance thing between owners and dogs is being abandoned by behaviourists as rubbish, the dogs still need to know you aren't the push over type so they are more likely to respect your decision on who is higher ranking amongst them.
No. 2 will be fed, fussed, put on lead, taken off lead, groomed, everything you do with them before no. 3 and if you fuss one and a lower one tries to push in for attention, the lower one should be ignored because this is a more subtle way of trying to climb the ladder, it is not about jealousy. The more attention you can command, the more dominant you are in other words. If one dog can steal the attention of an individual away from another, that dog has won the test of who deserves that individuals attention the most.

You must stick rigidly to these new rules because the dogs won't forget and will notice if you slip up.
I had to do this when my two bitches went through a bad patch years ago and they stopped fighting and I never had a problem since and I could leave them alone together fine without issues.

[tikeyas_mom]

In Calgary, the Humane Society has a list of pet-friendly rentals; try your local ones. Having some letters of reference from your vet and/or a past landlord can't hurt either.


Also, how about placing an "Accomodation Wanted" ad? You can spell out your situation, offer references on the dogs (if you can get them, or offer to pay a small extra deposit or something). That way, if and when someone calls, they'll already know what the deal is with pets. (If the pittie has been with you since puppyhood, that's good to mention).

HUGS

Actually I already have three ads placed in papers already for "accomodation for mature couple wanted" lol. I mentioned that pet/dog must be allowed. we own three very well behaved pooches, and baby boy on the way as well. Noone has yet replied, We have had the three ads placed for about two weeks now.. I hope that somone who is a dog lover, or who just doesnt care either way will call soon.

I have been checking rent finders, homefinders for my area and even areas a couple hours away for ANYTHING that might allow pets and we just havent had any luck.. Everyone seems to allow cats, some allow a small dog, just not large breeds, or more then one..

[shais_mom]

for "accomodation for mature couple wanted" ..

I'm wondering if they think a "mature" couple is like 40 or 50 ish?
Then you add in 3 dogs and a baby on the way - they probably don't know what to think....

[tikeyas_mom]

I'm wondering if they think a "mature" couple is like 40 or 50 ish?
Then you add in 3 dogs and a baby on the way - they probably don't know what to think....

hahahaha Do you think thats what people actually think of when they think mature?? Is AKA older couple?? haha OMG I must look like a total loonie bin if thats true lol.

[tikeyas_mom]

Canis-Lupess,
My problem is that three of the female dogs ALL large breeds, All want to be alpha. And We have already had to resort to putting the largest of the three dogs (Great Dane) in a muzzle because she has seriously tried to KILL the other female dogs.
She shows no signs of when she is about to attack the other dogs, she just does it out of the blue with no warning. She has cost me and my parents ALOT of money in vet bills. So in a muzzle she must stay till we move out.

If I had it my way Baby (Great dane) would be the obvious Alpha female, But she cant be allowed out of her muzzle because she is such a freak about attacking the other dogs in the house. Even if they cower to her.

Daisy (Pitbull) would be second in charge, but as of now she thinks she can be first in charge because Baby cant defend herself.

Tikeya (siberian husky) would be third, but she doesn't seem to agree. She doesn't give up being alpha female very easily, even if she has been attacked several times, and nearly died. She holds a HUGE grudge towards Baby for beating her up so many times, so I sence ALOT of tention between Baby and her ALL the time.

Ebony (black lab) she is so passive and carefree. she could honestly care less abou tthe other dogs around her, let alone risking her life to be alpha female.. She is the most well behaved out of the four females.

Oscar (shih tzu)would be the obvious fifth in comand, because he is the smallest.

I have told everyone in the house that if they are to give the dogs treats to make sure that Baby gets hers first, then Daisy, then Tikeya, then Ebony, then oscar.. But there are so many teenaged boys coming in and out of this house that they have a hard time remebering to keep it in that order. Alot of the time Baby gets her treats last because she is in a muzzle and she has to be pput in a seperate room to be given any treats..

[tikeyas_mom]

Canis-Lupess,
My problem is that three of the female dogs ALL large breeds, All want to be alpha. And We have already had to resort to putting the largest of the three dogs (Great Dane) in a muzzle because she has seriously tried to KILL the other female dogs.
She shows no signs of when she is about to attack the other dogs, she just does it out of the blue with no warning. She has cost me and my parents ALOT of money in vet bills. So in a muzzle she must stay till we move out.

If I had it my way Baby (Great dane) would be the obvious Alpha female, But she cant be allowed out of her muzzle because she is such a freak about attacking the other dogs in the house. Even if they cower to her.

Daisy (Pitbull) would be second in charge, but as of now she thinks she can be first in charge because Baby cant defend herself.

Tikeya (siberian husky) would be third, but she doesn't seem to agree. She doesn't give up being alpha female very easily, even if she has been attacked several times, and nearly died. She holds a HUGE grudge towards Baby for beating her up so many times, so I sence ALOT of tention between Baby and her ALL the time.

Ebony (black lab) she is so passive and carefree. she could honestly care less abou tthe other dogs around her, let alone risking her life to be alpha female.. She is the most well behaved out of the four females.

Oscar (shih tzu)would be the obvious fifth in comand, because he is the smallest.

I have told everyone in the house that if they are to give the dogs treats to make sure that Baby gets hers first, then Daisy, then Tikeya, then Ebony, then oscar.. But there are so many teenaged boys coming in and out of this house that they have a hard time remebering to keep it in that order. Alot of the time Baby gets her treats last because she is in a muzzle and she has to be pput in a seperate room to be given any treats.. Or to be fed.

[cyber-sibes]

They are part of the family, and crating, or locking them away from everyone just doesnt really seem fair to us..

Man, that's a tough situation, and I see red flags popping up because you are going to be bringing a newborn into this situation soon, too. The baby's safety & needs have to come first, even before the great love you have for all of your dogs. Could you live with something happening to your little one because of what a dog out of control with aggression might do? Look at what happened to Anna & Bon, she never imagined she'd get bit. In the heat of a fight, accidents happen. But, there are plenty of people on this board with more than one female and they get along just fine & never have a fight. I guess a lot of it depends on your dogs' personalities.

I hope you are able to find someone who can help you find a solution you can live with. It would be worth the investment. You know we're here to support whatever your decision is. (((hugs)))

[KittyGurl]

Is Daisy spayed? It is common for dogs that are not spayed/nuetered to become aggersive against other dogs.

I would recommend putting up baby gates to seperate your dogs so they won't fight. Also, give them the same attention, they might become jealous of eachother if you give one more attention them the other.

You should really get a trianer when you have a money. It will make a huge difference in your dogs' behavior.

[tikeyas_mom]

I would also advise to stop putting them in pack order. They are the subordinates. Don't go "Baby is first for treats, Daisy is second, Tikeya is third, etc." That's just asking the dogs to challenge among themselves. If you must feed treats, give them a command and *then* give treats.

We ALWAYS make the dogs obay a command before recieving any food/treats, or toys.. They never get treats without having to work for them. When I feed Tikeya, Ebony, and Daisy they are in different areas of our living room (Baby and Oscar are never around when they get fed). I make them all laydown, and wait before they recieve any food. All three listen very well when its feeding time.

Baby gets fed outside, with my mom, she sits and stays before she gets her food.
Oscar has food in his bowl all day, but the other dogs never bother with it, or him.

Man, that's a tough situation, and I see red flags popping up because you are going to be bringing a newborn into this situation soon, too. The baby's safety & needs have to come first, even before the great love you have for all of your dogs. Could you live with something happening to your little one because of what a dog out of control with aggression might do?

I would never be able to live with my self if somthing happend to my baby. I have that lingering fear in the back of my head that Daisy may become fear aggressive towards the new baby. I actually emailed a dog trainer yesterday, she got back to me today, and should be calling any time now. I will talk with her for a bit about Daisys history etc, see what she thinks of the whole situation.. I really dont know how we will be able to afford the training, but we will find away I suppose.. I know first hand that getting in the middle of a fight can end with being seriously hurt, because my mom and I got inbetween Tikeya and Babys last fight, and we both ended up in the hospital.

ETA: Just thought of something. You're probably heavily pregnant right now, right? How often do you exercise the pups? Pent up energy can easily be redirected into frustration and, thus, aggression. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.

I obviously dont excersize the dogs as much now as I did before I got pregnant. But I Make it a goal to walk two dogs, every second day for about 45 min around my naibourhood. I always switch around who I take. (ex: I will walk Tikeya, my mom will walk Oscar.. Then two days later I will Walk Ebony, and my mom will walk Baby etc.. etc..)

Right now I am medical leave, I am not allowed to exercise excessively. So If I find I cannot walk the dogs; My mom and I will take a couple of them to the beach. (We never take Baby or Daisy to the beach because they are so dog aggressive when they are there, but we always make sure Baby and Daisy are seperated if we arn't at home)

Is Daisy spayed? It is common for dogs that are not spayed/nuetered to become aggersive against other dogs.

Yes Daisy is spayed.

[Canis-Lupess]

Behaviourists are now saying that dogs do not try to dominate their human owners like they used to think they do.
After researching what some of the leading experts had to say, it seems most of them now agree on this. In fact, Peter Neville said in an interview that when students are taking the pet behaviourists course, they aren't even allowed to use the word dominant anymore.

Even if that was so, the heirachy does not stop at leader. It goes all the way down and if the dogs do not know where they stand with each other, they will fight until they do...
This can lead to death where humans are concerned and their inadvertent interfering stops the dogs from resolving their problems.
Even if the dogs know they aren't leader, that doesn't mean they aren't going to try and climb the ladder. How do you think dogs get to be leader to start with? Also, it isn't all about being leader, it is about having more privileges. With rank comes privilege. If you can take no. 2s place and have their privileges even though you aren't no. 1, you will do it.

It is well known in a pack that most of the fighting takes place between no.s 2 and 3. No. 1 (alpha) is surprisingly tolerant and not involved in much bickering because his status is clear. Nobody dare challenge him. Most arguments take place further down the ranks and thats what is happening here.
If a clear cut ranking order is not established between the dogs and they are treated as equals, they will continue to fight until one comes out on top.

Dogs do not do equality. It isn't a case of human in charge and then dogs all equal underneath them. Dogs do not work like that. The three females with the issue need to know where their place in accordance to each other.
Once the highest of the three doesn't feel threatened by the second because their status has been lowered, she will not attack. She has no reason to. Same goes for second with third.

You can establish your dominance over the dogs all you want but that will never prevent them fighting between themselves over who is going to be no.s 2, 3 and 4 and being no. 1 isn't the only position that dogs fight over as some people seem to mistakenly believe.

[tikeyas_mom]

I have a feeling alot of Daisys problem has to do with her genetics and her puppyhood. I did contact a dog trainer today, she told me that if Daisy was spoiled as a young pup (treated like a person and not a dog, and coddled when she was affraid) She will act out in fear aggression.
She may have just attacked Baby because she was affraid that Baby might attack her first. She also said that if it has anything to do with genetics then Daisy is pretty much beyond help.. She said that once genetics have written a personality pattern in the dogs brain it cant be changed..
She also said that Fear aggression is the hardest type of aggression to cure. She said that Daisy may never be the confident dog I want her to be.
I am setting up a private consult with this trainer for next week, its 50$ for her to meet Daisy and get to know her a little bit. Hopfully this trainer will be able to help us.

[Giselle]

It's true that the pack does not consist of one alpha and the rest being apathetic subordinates. However, in a pack of more than three dogs, the pack will generally fluctuate on a regular basis. And if we try to set into concrete our dogs' positions, we are essentially creating frustration. The beta dogs are in a continual fight for better positions and their position is always liquid, so to treat the dogs in a linear order can't be good. If one day, Dog 1 wins dominance over Dog 2, but you treat Dog 2 higher than Dog 1, there's probably going to be a scuffle that day. I dunno. The more I see the more I just don't agree with treating one dog higher over another =/

Anyhow, I really hope you find the root of the problem. But if it turns out that the dogs will always be fighting in this situation, re-homing wouldn't be a bad or irresponsible idea. I know it's a terrible idea, but I'm scared the dogs will still be fighting with one another when the baby arrives.