Alpha Rolls

[crow_noir]

The only time i have ever seen a canine force another canine over was actually just a few months ago when we took Koli for her first socialization session. She went to attack (using the term loosely) the other dog for a second time and was being quite a pain. He pinned her in less than a second. (It looked more like a Karate move than an alpha roll, but it served its purpose.) He was quite dignified. They had a whole conversation in about three seconds (eyes/body language) and when she agreed she was done nipping him he let her up.

Other than that yeah... either a dog submisses on it's own rolling over or it doesn't. They have other ways of establishing dominance.

BC_Mom, I agree. That's why I informed my trainer, and I told her that I'd prefer it if he didn't do these things in public. I can't control what he does at home, but hopefully we can enlighten him in class =/

Well, here's my take on alpha rolls. The thing is that I was always taught that the alpha rolls performed by wolves are not forceful in any way. I was taught that the dominant dog will place its arm over the subordinate and the lesser dog will willingly roll over to reveal its stomach. I see this with puppies a lot so it made sense. In fact, I was really curious and I decided to try it with Ivy . I got down on all fours and placed one arm over her back. She immediately flopped down belly up. Pretty amazing! My opinion is that alpha rolls have been disturbingly misused (no thanks to Cesar, either), and they've been morphed into some type of macho control mechanism. I can understand pinning a dog down to stop a fight because I am sometimes driven to that point, too. It's a gut reaction and, when mace is not on hand, it's sometimes the only option available to immediately stop a fight. However, to use it regularly as a training method is against my ethics.

ETA: However, I don't consider pinning a dog down to stop a fight as an alpha roll. I simply see it as a way of getting the dogs apart and away from each other if they're not wearing collars and/or it's unsafe to reach for the head area.

[packofchi's]

I think Alpha rolls can be extremely beneficial in correcting an aggressive dog when done correctly. My pit/corgi mix (Buddy) likes to try to attack one of our other large dogs. All I have to do is look at him and he rolls over, even with the other dog standing there. The other dog, Fonzi gets hyper. I'd never think about rolling him for his hyper behavior. That just tells me he needs to go for a walk.

Though I would like to add that even rolling Buddy would prove dangerous by anyone else (my sister tried it and he growled at her until I gave him 'the look'). I have spent many hours with this dog, and do this because it is the most efficient and easy way to get him out of his aggression mode. Most of the time I use positive reinforcement to train my dogs. Buddy came with some past issues I needed to work through, and it helps me maintain control and safety in my pack.

[catnapper]

Let me tell you the experience that happened two weeks ago in class. I saw a doggy mom try to do it to Newfoundland. He started freaking out and she looked at me to show her what she was doing wrong. I politely explained that there were different training philosophies out there and this was one in which I personally did not agree with. I invited her to stay after class. We talked about aggression and dominance. She read that you "had" to enforce your authority over dogs or they'd walk all over you, and how she was afraid that since he's going to be so big that she better do it now while she can still control him. I explained that he's obviously submissive and the rolls were actually doing more harm that good.... that with each roll he was scaring him and making him lose his sense of security and trust, and that TRUST was far more important in becoming authority to him than sheer muscle. Anyway, I might not be explaining everything so well, but it made perfect sense at the time and she thanked me profusely for explaining it so well.

A week later she came to class with a HUGE smile on her face. She said that since she stopped trying to do alpha rolls that EVERYTHING changed. She swears she has a different dog. He trusts her again, He's relaxed and willing to let her do whatever she wants to him. He's eager to respond to her.

Thats only one incidence where people tried to use rolls that weren't successful.... and every time the outcome is the same when they stop the rolls and start positive training methods.

[crow_noir]

Let me tell you the experience that happened two weeks ago in class. I saw a doggy mom try to do it to Newfoundland. He started freaking out and she looked at me to show her what she was doing wrong. I politely explained that there were different training philosophies out there and this was one in which I personally did not agree with. I invited her to stay after class. We talked about aggression and dominance. She read that you "had" to enforce your authority over dogs or they'd walk all over you, and how she was afraid that since he's going to be so big that she better do it now while she can still control him. I explained that he's obviously submissive and the rolls were actually doing more harm that good.... that with each roll he was scaring him and making him lose his sense of security and trust, and that TRUST was far more important in becoming authority to him than sheer muscle. Anyway, I might not be explaining everything so well, but it made perfect sense at the time and she thanked me profusely for explaining it so well.

A week later she came to class with a HUGE smile on her face. She said that since she stopped trying to do alpha rolls that EVERYTHING changed. She swears she has a different dog. He trusts her again, He's relaxed and willing to let her do whatever she wants to him. He's eager to respond to her.

Thats only one incidence where people tried to use rolls that weren't successful.... and every time the outcome is the same when they stop the rolls and start positive training methods.

[kallisto4529]

Ok I have not voted yet, due to the fact I am not sure what you are talking about when you say an alpha roll. What exactly is that? My vet told us with Reilly when he snaps and tries to bite us out of aggession to put him down on his side and hold him until he stops struggling, is this what you are talking about?? If so, I did not like it all, I tried it once and I hated it, now don't get me wrong, Reilly really needs a trainer and when we come back from vac, he is going to obedience class, but I dont like the idea of us "man handling" him, I feel we should be able to deal with his issues without that, we all just need trained on the correct way.

[catnapper]

Ok I have not voted yet, due to the fact I am not sure what you are talking about when you say an alpha roll. What exactly is that? My vet told us with Reilly when he snaps and tries to bite us out of aggession to put him down on his side and hold him until he stops struggling, is this what you are talking about?? If so, I did not like it all, I tried it once and I hated it, now don't get me wrong, Reilly really needs a trainer and when we come back from vac, he is going to obedience class, but I dont like the idea of us "man handling" him, I feel we should be able to deal with his issues without that, we all just need trained on the correct way.

Thats exactly what an alpha roll is. Your vet needs to take a few refresher courses on dog training.

[nancyweNW]

This may work for some dogs but I tried it once on mine as recommended by my trainer. All it did was scare her and not correct the behavior. I've never tried it since and won't.