Banned from grad for senior prank

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Dear god will people ever stop waxing poetic about "back in their day?" Today, unlike many years ago, many teaching strategies are based on empirical evidence and research. Giving students the correct answer, instead of simply telling them they are wrong without providing the correct answer, is a learning strategy. I would rather get a test back with the right answers, so I know how to change them, instead of just getting a useless piece of paper slashed with red ink.

Just because something is different than what it used to be like doesn't mean it's bad. People like to pretend that the world is the worst it's ever been- and in many ways it is, like global warming and people still living like it's 1950 and we don't know how harmful certain behaviors are when we really do. But in many ways society is better. There is less violent crime than ever, less teen pregnancies, LESS problems with youth.

I also think it's terribly hypocritical to tell teenagers on one hand to buck up and "live in the real world" and on the other give them a condescending lecture about how they are not adults. Fine, if teenagers are not adults, then don't expect them to act like it. I think people expect teens to act a certain way, so they do.

As far as the kid with the trays goes, all he's being denied is walking down to get his diploma. So what? What kind of punishment is that even? He still gets to graduate. I don't understand what the big deal is.

[Cataholic]

Dear god will people ever stop waxing poetic about "back in their day?" Today, unlike many years ago, many teaching strategies are based on empirical evidence and research. Giving students the correct answer, instead of simply telling them they are wrong without providing the correct answer, is a learning strategy. I would rather get a test back with the right answers, so I know how to change them, instead of just getting a useless piece of paper slashed with red ink.

I, for one, do not consider my comments "waxing poetically". However, they are from 20 plus years of post high school experience. Many times, with age, comes wisdom. Not always, but, many times. So, for some of us, offering a <gasp> mature attitude is nothing more than, in shortened form, "Hey, grow up". Educating, preaching, showing, illustrating, whatever comfortable word one uses, is what one gets when one posts a "can you believe this" post on a public message board.

Back in my day, there was much more respect for 'authority' in whatever form you put it- police, teachers, parents. Take a ten minute walk in any mall and tell me you don't see that for yourself. As for the comment to teen pregnancy, I would wager a bet it is because of more widely available forms of protection, better education as to sex, etc., rather than some comment on the status of the (American) world today. As for less violence? Where do you see that? Certainly not in the mass tragedies that have haunted this country since Columbine. Certainly not in the criminal justice system that is full of teen defendants. There are more alternative high schools in this country now than ever before- all the cater to those that can't pass in the more traditional sense.

As for getting a paper back with a red "x" on it, versus a more friendly written reason for the incorrect attitude, there is a middle ground. How about the student look up the right answer him/herself? There is some research that suggests the many different ways we receive the material can better cement it into our memories- hearing it, writing it, reading/seeing it, reiterating it. So, to somehow suggest it is incumbent upon the teacher to give it to the student, without putting some responsibility upon the student, isn't really 'teaching' is it?

I also think it's terribly hypocritical to tell teenagers on one hand to buck up and "live in the real world" and on the other give them a condescending lecture about how they are not adults. Fine, if teenagers are not adults, then don't expect them to act like it. I think people expect teens to act a certain way, so they do.

I believe many people were speaking in more casual ways- the word teen COULD very well be a 19 year old, a legal adult. But, a 14 or 16 year old is not an adult, I agree. Does this mean you feel there is no accountability for someone under the age of 18? Or, that some lightswitch suddenly flips at 18, and the person leaves his childish ways behind? There is a gradation process, I believe. (Some never reaching it, of course, and some reaching it much earlier that believable). But, to somehow fail to mention the 'right' way, just cause someone is young seems irresponsible. I tell my 2 year old all the time the way things should be done. I don't expect him to comply, fully understand, but, I still shoulder this responsibility.

As far as the kid with the trays goes, all he's being denied is walking down to get his diploma. So what? What kind of punishment is that even? He still gets to graduate. I don't understand what the big deal is.

This seems kind of contradictory to your earlier writings.

[sparks19]

Back in my day, there was much more respect for 'authority' in whatever form you put it- police, teachers, parents. Take a ten minute walk in any mall and tell me you don't see that for yourself. .

While this is very true and I cannot often believe the language coming out of kids these days.... I know that I was not always a perfect child but I often say "Im glad I never behaved like that" but the truth is I probably did sometimes.

As for there being respect for authority in your day..... That may be true for YOU.... but I know there are many people your age and older that do not respect authority now nor did they back then. Even my dad got the strap a time or two at school for being a bugger lol. Everyone has their moments when they are less than perfect.

In fact, some of the rudest people I have ever met are the "older back in my day" crowd. So while it is easy to sit back and say "I'm glad I never behaved like that. I always respected everyone." (even I find myself saying the same thing and I am only 26) It likely isn't true that you were ALWAYS respectful and never had less than top notch moments.

I don't think it is any worse to be totally rude and ignorant to an authority figure or just your average joe. Being rude is being rude, I don't think it matter who you are speaking to.

LOL and totally off topic.... I love how you referred to yourself as an old bat.... that's funny. I love that term and I hope I can be an old bat one day

[Cataholic]

Sparks19, forgive me if you feel I ever came across as if I were claiming I were perfect. Not than, not now, and I fear I won't be in the future, either. I have done some stupid things in my past, and while maybe not up to the level of some I hear about, stupid nonetheless.

BUT, I don't feel my imperfections mean I cannot hold an opinion. If that were the case, there wouldn't be a single person on the board, eh?

As for whether or not anyone has been rude or disrespectful to others in the past, I do feel that our own analysis of whether we have or have not been might not be the best indicator!

[sparks19]

Sparks19, forgive me if you feel I ever came across as if I were claiming I were perfect. Not than, not now, and I fear I won't be in the future, either. I have done some stupid things in my past, and while maybe not up to the level of some I hear about, stupid nonetheless.

BUT, I don't feel my imperfections mean I cannot hold an opinion. If that were the case, there wouldn't be a single person on the board, eh?

As for whether or not anyone has been rude or disrespectful to others in the past, I do feel that our own analysis of whether we have or have not been might not be the best indicator!

I never said your opinion wasn't valid.... only that there are a great deal of people in the "back in my day" generation that are very rude and ignorant.... not saying that you are one of them.... and as time goes by I REALLY try to be respectful to everyone.... of course that comes easier when dealing with some people than it does with others. I find being in retail that it takes a conscious effort for me to be pleasant to the nasty customers that just want to complain... but I try my best

It's funny.... I was just talking to an old friend the other day from elementary school and we were talking about all the things we used to do... man we were BUGGERS sometimes lol. We did some STUPID things. everyone does... it's called growing up now whether we bring that stupid behaviour into adult hood or leave it behind in our younger years is another matter.

[cassiesmom]

I graduated from parochial high school 24 years ago. (24 years ago June 10th, in fact. ) You could get in serious trouble really fast if you said or did anything disrespectful, not just to the teachers or principal, but to the librarian, office staff, bus drivers, custodians, basically any adult. Sometimes I wonder how I would get through high school if I were a student now. My sister-in-law teaches middle school and from the stories she tells I think things are just a lot different for kids. The Internet, media, the role of families and the function of a family in a child's life, things have just changed a lot. It seems to me that life just moves faster now than it did when I was in high school in the early '80s. I don't know if that is really possible, but it sure seems that way to me.

Edited to ask: Could it be that the expectations placed on kids are just different? Or, were my parents just tougher on discipline than the parents of today? I don't know. I can tell you I was a kid who toed the line and never took a risk. Even now, at 40, I'm risk-averse. Back then I wouldn't have dared to glue the trays together out of fear of the consequences.

[sparks19]

I also think what is considered rude has changed a little bit as well.... I mean of course foul language is ALWAYS rude.... although you do hear it everywhere today even on commercials.

But some people find it just as rude to be called ma'am or sir as it is to be told to pound salt.

[lizbud]

I graduated from parochial high school 24 years ago. (24 years ago June 10th, in fact. ) You could get in serious trouble really fast if you said or did anything disrespectful, not just to the teachers or principal, but to the librarian, office staff, bus drivers, custodians, basically any adult. Sometimes I wonder how I would get through high school if I were a student now. My sister-in-law teaches middle school and from the stories she tells I think things are just a lot different for kids. The Internet, media, the role of families and the function of a family in a child's life, things have just changed a lot. It seems to me that life just moves faster now than it did when I was in high school in the early '80s. I don't know if that is really possible, but it sure seems that way to me.

Edited to ask: Could it be that the expectations placed on kids are just different? Or, were my parents just tougher on discipline than the parents of today? I don't know. I can tell you I was a kid who toed the line and never took a risk. Even now, at 40, I'm risk-averse. Back then I wouldn't have dared to glue the trays together out of fear of the consequences.

You make some excellent points here. I do believe less is expected from
kids today as opposed to say, 25 years ago.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Back in my day, there was much more respect for 'authority' in whatever form you put it- police, teachers, parents. Take a ten minute walk in any mall and tell me you don't see that for yourself. As for the comment to teen pregnancy, I would wager a bet it is because of more widely available forms of protection, better education as to sex, etc., rather than some comment on the status of the (American) world today. As for less violence? Where do you see that? Certainly not in the mass tragedies that have haunted this country since Columbine. Certainly not in the criminal justice system that is full of teen defendants. There are more alternative high schools in this country now than ever before- all the cater to those that can't pass in the more traditional sense.

Not knowing you personally, I have no idea what decade you grew up in. However, many people in my parent's generation started a profound lack of disrespect for authority. Or did you read a different history about the 1960's? Since when did people then have a respect for most kinds of authority? Some of it was for good reason- consider the civil rights movement, for example. Some of it was fashion, popular culture, the throws of youth, whatever you want to call it with phrases like "don't trust anyone over 30." There were mass demonstrations, riots, and any number of events that could be considered "disrespectful." I fail to see how today's youth is more "disrespectful" than that.

As for less violent crime, look here: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm, you will see that most kinds of violent crime peaked in the early 1990's. Not only was there more crime then- and it has more or less steadily declined- but we have a higher population now. And sex education is a good thing, lowered teen pregnancies show that providing teens with information that actually works- not just using the same half- information that their parents learned.

As for getting a paper back with a red "x" on it, versus a more friendly written reason for the incorrect attitude, there is a middle ground. How about the student look up the right answer him/herself? There is some research that suggests the many different ways we receive the material can better cement it into our memories- hearing it, writing it, reading/seeing it, reiterating it. So, to somehow suggest it is incumbent upon the teacher to give it to the student, without putting some responsibility upon the student, isn't really 'teaching' is it?

You are assuming that 1) teachers have the time to make sure their students actually look this stuff up and 2) students will continue learning the material after their test is over. Many current educational laws (i.e. No Child Left Behind) encourage schools to teach to the test- they have to in order to get funding. Therefore, whether or not a student learns the information or not is irrelevant to getting funding. Only rote memorization is required. I'm certainly not advocating this, in fact I think it's setting our education further behind the developed world. However, providing students with an answer is certainly more helpful then just telling them it's wrong.

I believe many people were speaking in more casual ways- the word teen COULD very well be a 19 year old, a legal adult. But, a 14 or 16 year old is not an adult, I agree. Does this mean you feel there is no accountability for someone under the age of 18? Or, that some lightswitch suddenly flips at 18, and the person leaves his childish ways behind? There is a gradation process, I believe. (Some never reaching it, of course, and some reaching it much earlier that believable). But, to somehow fail to mention the 'right' way, just cause someone is young seems irresponsible. I tell my 2 year old all the time the way things should be done. I don't expect him to comply, fully understand, but, I still shoulder this responsibility.

Of course I think there should be accountability. But telling the kid he can't attend his graduation ceremony is kind of arbitrary. Why not make him work in the cafeteria to pay for the damage, for example- a lesson that is directly related to the crime, something that can actually teach a lesson instead of playing some kind of power struggle. I'm sure the kid isn't suffering because he can't go- most likely his parents are more upset than him.

My remark about teens was that people are simultaneously telling teens to "grow up" and then remarking on how immature they are. How are they supposed to do that if they have constant reminders about how unworthy they are? I see people on this site belittle younger members all the time, and often dismiss their viewpoints because they are still in high school. In my experience, age does not equal wisdom. I work with children and teens, and often times I see more "common sense" in them then I ever see in other adults.

Besides, if adults have so much more wisdom and propriety than teens, why are they making petty comments that I see all the time? Why would they even feel the need to say how much smarter and world-wise they are; you would think that would be self-evident. Even subtle remarks like "tell me what you think in 10 years" are condescending jabs that are completely ridiculous. It really annoys me that people assume someone else will feel the same as they do just due to the passing of time. We all have our own unique experiences that allow us to have unique opinions. Teens should be allowed to express their views without criticism like that.

[Cataholic]

PM- You seem to be taking this thread pretty personally. I am not sure why, but, of course, you can. I really don't see the same "everyone keeps saying this...", or "I always see the belittling comments..." or any of the other over generalizing statments you are making. I have read the thread twice, in its entirety.

Frankly, I don't see "check back in 10 years.." in quite the inflammatory way that you do. I think most of us would agree our perspectives do change over time. Is that good, bad or evil, I don't know. I would not go so far as to call it a 'fact' that people mature over time, but, certainly, it isn't a fictional statment, either.

I never know how to respond to someone that says something along the lines of, "well, all the adults I know are immature, and the kids have WAY more common sense then them", other than: change your friends. I see people from all walks of life, daily. I can say, without impunity, the adults tend to be WAY more mature than the younger set. Dunno. Maybe it is my perception?

I don't know what decade I grew up in. I was born in 1965. So, I guess it would be the 70s. I am not sure what history books I read, and what accounts they provided. Seeminly, I would have read the same ones you did. I would hardly lump the civil rights movement, any anti-war movement, and the anti-establishment groups in with an individual gluing two trays together in a school cafeteria. Just doesn't seem like these groups were fighting the same fight, you know what I mean?

I guess it depends on how you define violent crime. I never saw Columbine like activity before Columbine. I never saw young defendants like I see now, routinely- in the news, in the jails, in the courts. I have never seen the child snatchings, the child murders, like we have seen in the last ten years.

If, as you claim, the teachers don't even have the time to make sure the students are looking up the answers, what makes you think the teachers have the time to write the correct answers down for thier kids? Time is time. I still don't buy the theory, "the teacher takes the heat, the kids gets the pass". It isn't a theory that will take them very far IRL. As you say, you work with children and teens all the time. Certainly, you don't advocate the "well, if the teacher didn't do it for you, you are free to ignore that information".

Finally, it is that double standard. If teens have this 'right' to express their views (of course, I agree), then, adults enjoy that same right. I just don't see all this belittling stuff you are speaking of. Maybe I just read the wrong threads.

[sparks19]

Just want to add that maturity does not always bring common sense or civility. There are many people that are mature but still just as rude. and there are a lot of people that lack common sense even though they are mature.... hence all the stupid warnings they have to put on products lol.

[Cataholic]

Just want to add that maturity does not always bring common sense or civility. There are many people that are mature but still just as rude. and there are a lot of people that lack common sense even though they are mature.... hence all the stupid warnings they have to put on products lol.

While I haven't ever really thought about it before, you are exactly right. Good point.

And, then, there is the definition of maturity, in general. One can be the absolute most mature 10 year old on the planet, but, that isn't really the same as saying the 26 year old in the next room, also mature, is on the same plane as the 10 year old. (I purposely picked 26 for YOU, Sparks19, LOL).

[sparks19]

While I haven't ever really thought about it before, you are exactly right. Good point.

And, then, there is the definition of maturity, in general. One can be the absolute most mature 10 year old on the planet, but, that isn't really the same as saying the 26 year old in the next room, also mature, is on the same plane as the 10 year old. (I purposely picked 26 for YOU, Sparks19, LOL).

LOL thanks... I feel so special

and yes I agree. I really don't think a 10 year old is ever as mature as someone twice or three times their age.... I think the appropriate statement is that the 10 year old is very mature for their age....

[Pembroke_Corgi]

PM- You seem to be taking this thread pretty personally. I am not sure why, but, of course, you can. I really don't see the same "everyone keeps saying this...", or "I always see the belittling comments..." or any of the other over generalizing statments you are making. I have read the thread twice, in its entirety.

I shouldn't have to single anyone out- I'm not trying to point fingers, I am merely saying that if you look through many threads, especially in the dog house where there tend to be heated discussions, people quite consistently, if subtly, dismiss the opinions of younger people when they happen to be discordant with their own.

Frankly, I don't see "check back in 10 years.." in quite the inflammatory way that you do. I think most of us would agree our perspectives do change over time. Is that good, bad or evil, I don't know. I would not go so far as to call it a 'fact' that people mature over time, but, certainly, it isn't a fictional statment, either.

You are on one hand suggesting that people change in their lifetimes, but also saying that people NOW are more disrespectful then people in the past. It is true, life is full of change. Society changes. Why shouldn't people change? People are so ready to accept changes that they agree with (faster cars, computers, new conveniences) but expect people to remain the same. Why should teenagers today be the same as teenagers 40 or 60 years ago? And how were they really any better? Maybe kids of the 1940's were model citizens, I couldn't tell you. But, there were a lot of other problems in the world- worse ones, so far as I can tell (such as discrimination of minorities and women, world war, etc.). Expecting people to stay the same while the world changes is silly.

And the "check back in ten years" comment IS inflammatory. For one thing, it's something that will never come to be. No one is actually going to revisit this thread in 10 or 15 years. It's designed to point out how the person commenting has something that the other person does not- a certain age. And it's intended to point out the discrepancies between the older person's supposed knowledge and the younger one's. All in all, I think it's only a phrase used when the poster has no actual logical argument, or does not feel they have to answer to some one younger than themselves, and is designed to insult and humiliate.

I never know how to respond to someone that says something along the lines of, "well, all the adults I know are immature, and the kids have WAY more common sense then them", other than: change your friends. I see people from all walks of life, daily. I can say, without impunity, the adults tend to be WAY more mature than the younger set. Dunno. Maybe it is my perception?

Sure, most adults know how to go to work each day and get by, but that doesn't mean they have any common sense. Why would so many kids have all of these problems if their parents were mature role models? Most likely, they wouldn't. How could incidents like Columbine happen if parents (the mature ones, remember?) were more aware of their children's activities. I mean, who lets their teen have access to assault rifles? I am not blaming the parents, because clearly there were a lot of factors involved. But because adults are the guardians of young people means they should be more responsible, and in many cases I just don't see it.

I don't know what decade I grew up in. I was born in 1965. So, I guess it would be the 70s. I am not sure what history books I read, and what accounts they provided. Seeminly, I would have read the same ones you did. I would hardly lump the civil rights movement, any anti-war movement, and the anti-establishment groups in with an individual gluing two trays together in a school cafeteria. Just doesn't seem like these groups were fighting the same fight, you know what I mean?

Well, there were certainly times when people fought the "good fight" in the 60's. But there was also a widespread culture of distrust and disrespect towards authority that had more to do with coolness than it did social justice.

I guess it depends on how you define violent crime. I never saw Columbine like activity before Columbine. I never saw young defendants like I see now, routinely- in the news, in the jails, in the courts. I have never seen the child snatchings, the child murders, like we have seen in the last ten years.

Just because you haven't "seen" it, doesn't mean that it's fact. The media reports more than ever before, and we have access to it 24/7. It's unfortunate if more and more young people are becoming victims and criminals (though I would prefer to see actual statistics rather than anecdotal evidence), but maybe they are simply having to grow up faster. Young people have access to the same information we do, and good or bad, times change.

If, as you claim, the teachers don't even have the time to make sure the students are looking up the answers, what makes you think the teachers have the time to write the correct answers down for thier kids? Time is time. I still don't buy the theory, "the teacher takes the heat, the kids gets the pass". It isn't a theory that will take them very far IRL. As you say, you work with children and teens all the time. Certainly, you don't advocate the "well, if the teacher didn't do it for you, you are free to ignore that information".

I already said I do not advocate that- I think schools today DO get blamed for more then their fair share of things, though. And I think the current administration's education policy makes it very difficult for teachers to teach ideally.

Finally, it is that double standard. If teens have this 'right' to express their views (of course, I agree), then, adults enjoy that same right. I just don't see all this belittling stuff you are speaking of. Maybe I just read the wrong threads.

Of course everyone can express themselves. Maybe you don't see the belittling part because you think that older members have more to contribute than younger ones- and you agree with sentiments like "I know more than you, I am 20 years older, and one day you will agree with me because I am right."

[lizbud]

Why should teenagers today be the same as teenagers 40 or 60 years ago? And how were they really any better? Maybe kids of the 1940's were model citizens, I couldn't tell you. But, there were a lot of other problems in the world- worse ones, so far as I can tell (such as discrimination of minorities and women, world war, etc.). Expecting people to stay the same while the world changes is silly.

Of course everyone can express themselves. Maybe you don't see the belittling part because you think that older members have more to contribute than younger ones- and you agree with sentiments like "I know more than you, I am 20 years older, and one day you will agree with me because I am right."

Teenagers today are no are different than they ever were. They the same
because they are at the same stage of development mentally & phsically.
Teenagers and adults will never act or think the same way about anything.
Well, very seldom) Their brains are at different levels of development. In
medical studies they call the" teenage brain" a work in progress. No
insult intended here, that's just the way it is.


http://www.edutopia.org/inside-teenage-brain


or http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Teachers/brain.html