This is the last time.. Bye Baby:(

[SemaviLady]

Yikes, I'm so sorry!

Has Baby had a Thyroid panel done recently? Sometimes the Dodd's panel will find some deficiency that can be addressed with medication. A normal in-clinic T3/4 test will not be sufficient because they may be normal while the rest is out of wack.

I'm not familiar with her history. Is she a rescue? If she came from a breeder that you know, the breeder should have the first option for intervention (most I know, request this in writing). Some rescues actually do take dogs back even if it has been years.

It is very likely that she is a very sweet dog. Baby's behavior was very focused on taking out Tikeya but I know that girls can get into it (Baby's at that age where ranking can get to be an issue), but I am concerned particularly because of the misdirected aggression... people are getting bitten and considering Baby's size...

If the bite that your mom took previously and again this time, were inhibited bites (or more worrying, if not) and Baby calmed down immediately when she saw her goof, then I do agree placement in another home (after a vet check and a full thyroid panel with auto antibodies screened) may be the best solution.

Tension in the other animals and worry can do much to shift the stability in a home.

Caution: In some locales and in placement/rehome situations, if the dog has bitten someone, and there is not full disclosure, the person who rehomes her could potentially be at serious risk for liability. The placement agreement (one that includes the stipulation to take her back if it doesn't work out) may require that the understanding that she has bitten a human to be in writing.

[tikeyas_mom]

Has Baby had a Thyroid panel done recently? Sometimes the Dodd's panel will find some deficiency that can be addressed with medication. A normal in-clinic T3/4 test will not be sufficient because they may be normal while the rest is out of wack.

I'm not familiar with her history. Is she a rescue? If she came from a breeder that you know, the breeder should have the first option for intervention (most I know, request this in writing). Some rescues actually do take dogs back even if it has been years.

I have never heard of a thyroid panel before. Baby is sort of a rescue.. She was originally bought from a breeder in peachland British Columbia (sunset danes i think?)..Her dogs arnt all registered, or show quality.. She was sold with no papers, under the agreement that she would be a pet dog only. Her original owners couldnt keep her due to moving, so they gave her to us at 3 months old.. Tikeya and her got along great till she turned 2. Thenall hell broke loose.. We spayed her at 6 months, and she was NEVER abused.
I met two of her siblings, both male danes.. They are Both also very dog agressive.. maybe its in the genetics?

[SemaviLady]

I have never heard of a thyroid panel before.

Here's a web page that talks about thyroid and behavior issues
http://www.doganswers.com/Thyroid.htm

Baby is sort of a rescue.. She was originally bought from a breeder in peachland British Columbia (sunset danes i think?)..Her dogs arnt all registered, or show quality.. She was sold with no papers, under the agreement that she would be a pet dog only. Her original owners couldnt keep her due to moving, so they gave her to us at 3 months old.. Tikeya and her got along great till she turned 2. Thenall hell broke loose.. We spayed her at 6 months, and she was NEVER abused.

It's not uncommon for same sex couples of dogs to get into it as a younger one matures. Males with males and females with other females. From the physiology and psychological aspect, neutering females does not reduce potential for this type of aggression. It doesn't happen in all cases. Dogs are individuals.

It has however been shown that sometimes neutering before maturity leads to agression. This is why Canine Companions for Independence and Guide Dog associations neuter at one year or later if it is possible. (not all puppy raisers will be able to cope with a first heat)

Yesterday I made the rounds at the California state capital to visit the offices of the Assembly Business & Professions Committee members to discuss AB 1634. I was accompanied by two police officers who discussed the harmful impacts AB 1634 would have on law enforcement. Also with us was the person in charge of the breeding and training program at Canine Companions for Independence (CCI), who discussed how AB 1634 would harm programs that assist blind and disabled Californians. He also represented Assistance Dogs International, Inc., an umbrella organization over many guide/service/hearing dog organizations.

Similar to guide dog programs, CCI breeds and trains dogs to assist disabled people. They use Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Golden/Labrador mixes. CCI breeds over 600 dogs a year.

My jaw nearly hit the floor when the CCI representative started describing research that CCI did in the early 1990s to understand spay/neuter impacts. CCI wanted to know if early s/n (less than 6 months of age) would yield results at least as good as their traditional spay/neuter age, which is usually over 12 months of age (typical is 17 months of age). So CCI did a controlled prospective research study... the gold standard of research to understand cause-and-effect.

CCI assigned half the pups in a number of litters to be s/n early, while the remaining pups in these litters were s/n at their traditional age. The results were very unexpected. The early-age spayed females were significantly more dog aggressive than the traditional-age spayed females. Urinary incontinence was a much bigger problem in the early-age spayed females compared to the traditional-age spayed females. The early-age neutered males were more fearful than the traditional-age neutered males. The bottom line is that the early-age spay/neuter dogs had a significantly higher failure rate in CCI's program... a smaller percentage of them grew up to be working dogs. As a result, CCI will not spay/neuter dogs before 6 months of age, and usually wait until dogs are more than 12 months old to spay/neuter. The CCI rep said this research has been repeated by others. I believe one of them may be Guide Dogs for the Blind, as I was told by one of their trainers that they recently stopped doing early spay/neuter owing to results they were seeing that they don't like.

See context from the middle of this post - http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...97710#poststop

I met two of her siblings, both male danes.. They are Both also very dog agressive.. maybe its in the genetics?

Could be. Are they also neutered? Do you know what age? Is there an unneutered sibling? what is the state of that sibling's reactivity? (this is a way to study the effect of neutering down a family line, just like the guide dog groups did).
Are the unneutered parents not so aggressive? (you might not know, I realize).

I think that very large breeds mature quite slowly and should only ever be placed in homes that can control the dog through early maturity (so that it doesn't get loose and BREED!) until it has reached at least a couple years of age before neutering.
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...02199#poststop

But none of this information is helpful for your situation NOW. I think you could take the first link and read up, then see about having Baby's thyroid panel done. The vet may be able to recommend a behaviorist.

[elizabethann]

Baby's the Great Dane, correct?

I've never heard of Great Dane's attacking other dogs like that. But then again, I've never had a Great Dane. I wonder if Baby is sick or something?

That must have been an awful sight. I hope your Mom is okay. Did she need stitches?

I hope you can find Baby a good home and I hope she doesn't attack again.

Good luck.

[pitc9]

I'm so sorry....
I hope everyone heals quickly!

Just as an FYI, the quickest and safest way to break up a dog fight is to grab the dogs by their back legs. They'll stop the second they're back feet are off the ground. They have no balance once you do this, so they can't even really move at all let alone keep fighting with one another.

[angelchampy]

I'm so sorry to hear that. That is devastating. It's so scary to see dogs get into it. I've gotten bitten myself trying to break up fights. I volunteer for a rescue and you never know what kind of history a dog has and whether or not they get along with others. But you definitely cannot go on like this. Somebody is going to get hurt really bad or worse. You're doing the right thing. Logan is right, please be careful when rehoming. The people have to know how important it is that Baby is the only dog. It would be good if those people took Baby - this way you get to see her. Also, watch out for Tikeyas. She may be a little leary or submissive around other dogs now. Sometimes a traumatic incident like that can take a toll on a dog. Hugs to all.

[tikeyas_mom]

Tikeya has been VERY weary of other dogs since this last fight happend.. Just yesterday I took her for a short walk, and a Lab came running out of its yard to greet her and she started growling instantly.. I hope this last fight doesn't effect her relationship with Daisy and Ebony.

[Ginger's Mom]

I have been following this thread, but I haven't responded because I really do not know what to say. What a horrible situation for everyone. Poor Tikeya, I still remember the pictures from the last attack and the thought of her being swung around by the neck for 15 minutes this time just makes me sick. I am sure that it was even worse for you to have witnessed it. And of course your mother getting bit is awful and scary. I am just sorry.

[wolfsoul]

From what Jynnelle has told me, this isn't a dominance issue. I've known Baby since she was a wee baby -- she has always been one of the most submissive dogs I've met. She becomes very upset if another dog rejects her (she will go in "her" room and lay on the bed literally all day pouting). She isn't attacking for any particular reason, so it seems. She can be playing happily with the other dog one second, then two seconds later the dog walks by her and she just snaps and goes straight for the other dog's throat, and it doesn't stop when the dog submits -- The other dog never fights back -- they always roll over on their back, but Baby keeps going -- I think she would fight to the death. I think there is something wrong in the aggression center in her brain. It just randomly turns on and then won't turn off again. I wouldn't imagine it would be a thyroid issue. Baby doesn't smell "thyroidy," her skin and coat are healthy, and she is at a good weight. They took her to the vet after this and he said she was in perfect physical health (except for her wound which is infected and she is on antibiotics). I suppose not all thyroid conditions can be seen from the outside but in a mature dog it is more likely for outside symptoms to start -- unless of course attacking other dogs IS the outside symptom.

Jynnelle's mom got stiches and is wearing a sling -- she had bites right down to the bone. Jynnelle managed to get away without stitches but she will probably lose her fingernail, one of the dogs bit right through it.

I am really sad about Baby...You would all have to meet her to know..she really is the most submissive dog, especially when it comes to Tikeya. She always looks up to Tikeya and respects her and tries so hard to be her friend. She is an absolute chicken, not dominant in the least. So sweet towards all people. I'm thinking this is much more like rage syndrome because it is always sudden and unprovoked and so very unnatural.

A picture of Baby hiding from the chihuahua...This was as close as she would get, she was terrified of him.

[luvofallhorses]

I hope she can find a home where she is the only pet.

[crow_noir]

I agree with getting Baby checked out to rule out this being a medical problem.

Otherwise, and i really do not mean to sound insensitive, but I've kept quiet long enough. It sickens me and angers me to no end that someone would even consider rehoming this aggressive of a dog!!! What if you were out walking Tikeya and it was some strange dog that did that to her? How would you feel about this other dog running loose and attacking her.

Please reconsider rehoming her and do what is best for everyone. If this turns out to me a medical issue, fine I can see rehoming her. If all the test results come back normal, then i BEG you to PLEASE have Baby put down. Unless this is mediacal, i really don't see any chance of Baby being rehabilitated. Especially since you said that her brothers are dog aggressive too.

[wolfsoul]

Just because a dog is dog aggressive doesn't mean it should be killed. Some animal rescues go very far to rehabilitate pit bulls that were used for fighting, and these dogs don't just randomly attack a dog a couple of times a year like Baby has, they are high drive dogs that will go after any dog they see. Yet these dogs manage to find homes and live happy lives away from other dogs because people "feel sorry for them" and the dogs deserve a home where they can be loved because it's not their fault they are fighters...Doesn't Baby deserve the same right even though she was raised as a family pet?
Heck, I know more dogs that would rip off a person's face, let alone a dog's, and they live just fine contained and controlled in their own home. Just because Baby isn't compaitble with one household doesn not mean she should be put to death.
Personally if a dog wandered up to my dog and attacked it, I wouldn't be knocking down any doors to get the dog killed. I would be taking it out on the owner who can't properly contain their dog in their home.
If you knew Baby you would understand.

[crow_noir]

Sorry, none of that makes sense to me. It never has. I just can't fathom why someone would keep a dog-aggressive dog. EVER.

Territorial is another thing. Dogs breed to be guard dogs. Dogs fulfilling a purpose. (These are dogs that normally outside of their homes and yards will get along fine with other dogs. At their own places though, intruder beware. Such as sheep watching dogs.) I understand this.

Just because a dog is dog aggressive doesn't mean it should be killed. Some animal rescues go very far to rehabilitate pit bulls that were used for fighting, and these dogs don't just randomly attack a dog a couple of times a year like Baby has, they are high drive dogs that will go after any dog they see. Yet these dogs manage to find homes and live happy lives away from other dogs because people "feel sorry for them" and the dogs deserve a home where they can be loved because it's not their fault they are fighters...Doesn't Baby deserve the same right even though she was raised as a family pet?
Heck, I know more dogs that would rip off a person's face, let alone a dog's, and they live just fine contained and controlled in their own home. Just because Baby isn't compaitble with one household doesn not mean she should be put to death.
Personally if a dog wandered up to my dog and attacked it, I wouldn't be knocking down any doors to get the dog killed. I would be taking it out on the owner who can't properly contain their dog in their home.
If you knew Baby you would understand.

[Alysser]

I agree with wolfsoul, I know a dog aggressive dog, but his owners are VERY good at controlling him on walks, and since they've moved here he has never gotten out of their yard. They keep him very well controlled and as long as he isn't with another dog he can lead a PERFECTLY normal life, which he does. I am talking about Pettalk's very own Rusty. Dog aggressive dogs can be fine as long as they are controlled and owned by the proper person.

[Ginger's Mom]

I think she would fight to the death. I think there is something wrong in the aggression center in her brain. It just randomly turns on and then won't turn off again.

I have such mixed feelings on this issue. I am not one to say just put the dog down, don't try to help her find a home where she can thrive. BUT, it is this part here that scares me. How do you deal with something like that? This is a big dog that most people would not be able to physically restrain if she were to go after another dog or person. And yes, I added person on purpose. If there is "something wrong with the aggression center of her brain" you cannot guarantee that she won't show the same aggression toward humans. No if there is no identifiable physical/chemical reason for this behavior that can be remedied, I see a very bleak future for Baby.