Words well spoken...Recieved in Email

[sparks19]

I think there are some parents who are too afraid to instil any discipline in their children at an early age which lets the little darlings think they can do and say exactly what they want.

This may be out of guilt because parents are working and try to make it up to junior by giving them a free rein or that some parents just don't have clue due to their own upbringing.

I'm not going to start calling for national service or corporal punishment but I do think the children should learn their place in society and learn to respect the adults around them and the rules they should be set. Their time will come.

My Katie is 17 and thoroughly spoilt but she knows the difference between right and wrong and has the self confidence not to follow the crowd

OH of course not.... it's cute when they are toddlers to hear them tell their elders to shut up...... or they flip the bird. "Oh he doesn't know what it means... it's harmless" Yeah well eventually that toddler will grow into an adult and still think it is ok and the norm to behave this way.

There is a difference between spoiling your children and not disciplining them. I must say as a child I was pretty spoiled..... but I was still punished for doing wrong. I got my fair share of whacks on the butt lol.... and that started when I was a toddler. it was never accepted.... and after that I never even had to be grounded until I was 16 and that grounding was all based on a lie by my sister (long story but she's a nut case lol). I didn't want to misbehave (not to say I didn't have my fair share of temper tantrums or things of that sort but I never stayed out passed curfew, stole or any of that stuff) because I knew I would face the consequences..... and because I made my own decision to do the right things for the most part I was allowed to be very independant as a preteen.

Another thing I learned from playing school yard games..... sure I got upset if someone wasn't "playing by the rules" or I didn't get my way. But I learned that pouting and throwing a tantrum resulted in.... NOTHING. lol no one cared if you didn't like how the game was going or if it wasn't "fair" to you lol.... you were left to pout and throw your tantrum and they just continued the game without you. I don't throw tantrums anymore hahaha they don't work.

[Puckstop31]

I look at the list of school shooting above and they all have one thing in common. GUNS...

Some insist that because the constitution says...A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms...there can be no restrictions on firearms...cop-killer bullets...rapid fire...automatics....

Yet...other rights...freedom from search and siezure...freedom of speech can be regulated and abridged.

The Supreme Court has ruled the government can regulate some speech...you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater.

What can't the government set limits on firearms in the same manner?

I would feel more safe knowing there were no semi-automatics in the school than knowing the teacher has lead all the children in reciting the Lord's prayer.

There are restrictions on automatic weapons and certain types of ammunition. The problem is criminals don't care about laws.

You mention the government placing limits on firearms. What kind of limits? There are, IMHO, already more than enough gun control laws on the books. How about we enforce the laws that are already in place before we give the government even more power over us?

Finally, do not forget the real reason the founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the first place. They believed, as I do, that the government should fear the people not the people fear the government. I am not willing to give up the right to simply feel more "secure".

I promise you that draconian gun control laws is going to what starts the next revolution in this country. When they come for our guns, its time to vote from the rooftops. If the government wants to make me a criminal simply because I own guns, so be it. Who will fight for the government when half of the police and probably even more of the military will be on the side of freedom?

Society is the problem, lack of respect for each other, lack of common courtesy, lack of consequences for actions, lack of discipline... Not an inanimate object.

[sparks19]

Society is the problem, lack of respect for each other, lack of common courtesy, lack of consequences for actions, lack of discipline... Not an inanimate object.

That and lack of parenting.

How many children these days are given toy guns to play with? What kind of message does that send to your children? it is OK to use guns as a toy...... then you tell them that "real" guns are not a toy. How come one gun is a toy and one gun is NOT a toy. Education..... education..... education. TEACH them about guns. Dont give them a toy gun to "play" with and then tell them they can't touch a real gun and then hide it from them with no explanation. They need to learn respect..... respect for the weapon.... respect for people.... and respect for themselves.

EDUCATION.... starting at home and THEN education continuing on throughout life.... in schools.... in sports.... everywhere. But the bottom line.... the parents are responsible for them and their actions until they are adults.... but the education should not stop then. I know I am still learning lots of things..... I'm sure everyone is.

Although I do like that saying "Teenagers should move out into the world while they still know everything" I remember the "I know everything" phase haha I was quickly humbled out of that phase

[wombat2u2004]

There are restrictions on automatic weapons and certain types of ammunition. The problem is criminals don't care about laws.

You mention the government placing limits on firearms. What kind of limits? There are, IMHO, already more than enough gun control laws on the books. How about we enforce the laws that are already in place before we give the government even more power over us?

Finally, do not forget the real reason the founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the first place. They believed, as I do, that the government should fear the people not the people fear the government. I am not willing to give up the right to simply feel more "secure".

I promise you that draconian gun control laws is going to what starts the next revolution in this country. When they come for our guns, its time to vote from the rooftops. If the government wants to make me a criminal simply because I own guns, so be it. Who will fight for the government when half of the police and probably even more of the military will be on the side of freedom?

Society is the problem, lack of respect for each other, lack of common courtesy, lack of consequences for actions, lack of discipline... Not an inanimate object.

You can't just disarm the public because some whacko goes nuts. The public have the right to defend themselves, and therefore the right to bear firearms.
Lets face it, even if the public was disarmed, the criminals still seem to access weapons no problem....it's happened here in Australia....we have tough gun control laws, we in the public are now disarmed......STILL we have the criminals out there who access weapons.
Yes, society is to blame.
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=Dr.Goodnow]I really wasn't aiming this thread at schools, I was more moved by this mans humble and forgiving nature, and the fact that he refused to blame any one thing for the tradegy that befall him and many others. That he in a very inoffensive but very powerful way placed the blame on the shoulders of the families of the shooter, and the people we charge to value our children.

Sorry if I took this discussion of yours on a little tangent Doc. But I received that post and the one you posted about the same time here, seems to me that they are both sort of linked.
Wom

[lizbud]

There are restrictions on automatic weapons and certain types of ammunition. The problem is criminals don't care about laws.

You mention the government placing limits on firearms. What kind of limits? There are, IMHO, already more than enough gun control laws on the books. How about we enforce the laws that are already in place before we give the government even more power over us?

What current restrictions on there on automatic weapons? Do you mean
in the size of the clip people can use? I think gun control is more necessary
now. Gun control does not mean no guns sold, it should mean no more
assault weapons shoud be sold in gun stores. There is no need for anyone
to have half the auto weapons now available for sale. IMO

[DrKym]

[QUOTE=wombat2u2004]

I really wasn't aiming this thread at schools, I was more moved by this mans humble and forgiving nature, and the fact that he refused to blame any one thing for the tradegy that befall him and many others. That he in a very inoffensive but very powerful way placed the blame on the shoulders of the families of the shooter, and the people we charge to value our children.

Sorry if I took this discussion of yours on a little tangent Doc. But I received that post and the one you posted about the same time here, seems to me that they are both sort of linked.
Wom

No worries mate!

[Lady's Human]

The LEGAL acquisition of a fully automatic firearm is an arduous, expensive proposition.

Step 1: Apply for a federal class III permit. Be prepared to fill out more paperwork than you have to fill out for a high level security clearance. Make sure no one has ever said anything negative about you to any law enforcement official.Anyone at any level of the permit process can deny the permit.

Step 2: Assuming you have the permit, find a dealer. If the dealer doesn't know you, be prepared to show damned near every piece of ID you have ever been issued to prove that you are who you say you are. Once the dealer is assured that you are actually a legal purchaser, they might deal with you. Make sure you bring plenty of cash, though. A fully automatic weapon will cost you anywhere from $5000 (For a junky little MAC-10 ) up to $50-75000 for a vintage browning machine gun.

There are currently restrictions on "armor piercing" bullets. (A misnomer, armor piercing performance has far more to do with bullet shape and speed than material)

There are federal bans against people with a history of mental illness owning firearms.

There are over 22,000 gun laws on the books. We don't need more laws. We need enforcement of the ones in place.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

The cab driver said "Kids are born crazy..... it's the parents job to straighten them out." lol he was joking (sorta) but I like that Today they have taken all responsibility off of the parents.... off of anyone really. Your child is misbehaving? he must have a disorder of some kind.... it's not his fault he can't behave.... he needs to be pumped full of drugs to help him behave. NO HE NEEDS A SWIFT KICK IN THE BUTT to help him behave.

Just like kids can't play dodgeball and tag in school anymore because it's a game of exclusion and it singles out the weaker kids and their feelings get hurt and it's not fair..... WELL life isn't fair.... how does any of that prepare them for when they get into the real world and HAVE to face disappointment. and they wonder why kids suddenly snap when they are expected to be responsible for themselves when no one ever taught them to be responsible..... when they grew up with sunshine and puppies and no one ever lost and no one ever won and everyone was equal. Suddenly they are thrown into real life where someone DOES win and someone DOES lose and things aren't always fair and equal and hunky dorey. and I don't know about you.... but tag never made me feel like an outcast or feel excluded or hurt my feelings. it was a game.... sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but it's still fun. And that is not the schools fault that they aren't allowed to help prepare kids for life..... heck even parents aren't expected to do that anymore.

Can you even say the pledge of allegience in schools anymore?

"everything I need to know about life I learned in Kindergarten" That used to be true.... not anymore.

I was one of those well-behaved children. I was obedient, polite, and quiet. I received straight A's and my teachers all loved me. I never once received a detention, or ever came close. Was I happy? Of course not, my father was a classic authoritarian parent and I was simply conditioned to behave that way. I would take a happy, normal child any day and I think that people who talk about "kids these days" are simply glossing over their own childhoods or are completely out of touch with kids.

I work with kids every single day and I can tell you that they are not anything like what I would think hearing some people describe them. They are fun to be around, and frankly they have minds of their own and don't need to be programmed like robots to think exactly what their parents think. Chances are, if parents are good role models the kids will pick up on that anyway, and they certainly don't need to be "kicked in the butt."

I also think that it's a good thing that exclusionary games are being removed from schools. Life is NEVER "sunshine and puppies" no matter what. But, why would you ever set your child up for disappointment if you could avoid it? That doesn't make sense to me, but then again neither does saying that all we really need is a kindergarten education. Guess I just wasted about 17 years of my life then, huh?

[sparks19]

I was one of those well-behaved children. I was obedient, polite, and quiet. I received straight A's and my teachers all loved me. I never once received a detention, or ever came close. Was I happy? Of course not, my father was a classic authoritarian parent and I was simply conditioned to behave that way. I would take a happy, normal child any day and I think that people who talk about "kids these days" are simply glossing over their own childhoods or are completely out of touch with kids.

I work with kids every single day and I can tell you that they are not anything like what I would think hearing some people describe them. They are fun to be around, and frankly they have minds of their own and don't need to be programmed like robots to think exactly what their parents think. Chances are, if parents are good role models the kids will pick up on that anyway, and they certainly don't need to be "kicked in the butt."

I also think that it's a good thing that exclusionary games are being removed from schools. Life is NEVER "sunshine and puppies" no matter what. But, why would you ever set your child up for disappointment if you could avoid it? That doesn't make sense to me, but then again neither does saying that all we really need is a kindergarten education. Guess I just wasted about 17 years of my life then, huh?

Well I didn't have an authoritative parent. I was happy as a child. I was just taught from the beginning that my actions had consequences. i was allowed to make my own decision but I was always told that making the wrong decision could result in consequences and those consequences were enforced. Doesn't mean my parents were strict or authoritative. There is a balance between teaching your kids right and wrong and being overbearing and overly strict. My parents were not strict..... they just made the rules very clear. I had to be home by curfew.... and I was. by no means what I a straight A student.... but I didn't steal, I didn't beat up other kids, I didn't run away from home, etc etc. children need a good balance of family, love and discipline. AND NEVER discipline while angry and after the punishment is doled out always sit down with your child and TALK about WHY they are being punished and always end with an "I love you very much". You don't have to beat your kids into submission or keep them under lock and key. Just teach them the rules from a very young age.... teach them respect..... compassion.... love.... and understanding. Discipline and following the rules is not programming them to believe what their parents believe..... telling a child they have to be home by 9 is not programming, telling them they have to be in bed by ten is not programming, telling them they have to eat some vegetables is not programming. They are RULEs. Everyone has rules, everyone has to follow rules, children included. AND they need to be given responsibilities in order to learn responsibility. My brother wouldn't let his kids be home alone after school when they were 14. I was babysitting when i was 11 (of course it was different times and there is more to worry about now) Kids need to earn trust.... and with trust comes freedom and responsibility. My mom trusted me because I didn't betray her trust, I was given a lot of freedom because I earned it. Was I a perfect child? HECK no lol. I had ATTITUDE and lots of it. Did I get away with back talk? no i didn't. but I still slammed my bedroom door and threw my tantrums lol.... but when it came to the big stuff, I could be trusted and I earned that. and that was a great feeling for me knowing that I had that freedom and I worked hard to get it.

Setting up your kid for disappointment? WHAT? lol. So they shouldn't play board games because they might not be good at them and lose and be disappointed? they shouldn't play sports because they might not be the best on the team and lose and be disappointed? Tag is no different. I wasn't the fastest kid in the yard..... I wasn't good at sports.... I wasn't the first kid picked for every game..... but it didn't destroy me for life. Kids will learn disappointment one way or another.... better to learn that you can't always win earlier in life rather than have them find out as a highschool student that life doesn't always give you what you want and then they SNAP. That's not setting a kid up for disappointment that's setting a kid up for life. they aren't always going to pass the test..... they aren't ALWAYS gonna get the girl/guy..... they aren't always gonna win the game..... they aren't always going to get their way. Why is that wrong? the point is that when disappointment happens they learn how to deal with it..... you as a parent sit down and talk to them about the game they lost or the test they didn't do so great on and tell them that they can't win all the time but if they tried their best and had a good time then the rest really isn't that big a deal and tell them how proud you are of them. that is not setting them up for disappointment. Sometimes they will win and that is great but they also have to learn to be a gracious winner. but sometimes they will lose and they have to learn not to be a sore loser, tomorrow is another day with new surprises and tomorrow that game or that test will just be a memory..... it will give them great coping skills for later in life (especially high school which is FULL of disappointments).

As for the "everything I learned about life I learned in Kindergarten" are you serious? You are seriously getting up in arms about that? lol it's just a saying. In other words.... in Kindergarten you learn to SHARE, and INTERACT, and they learn A LOT of basics for life. But now..... they shouldn't HAVE to share, they shouldn't HAVE to do anything they don't WANT to do, They shouldn't HAVE to clean up their own mess. http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm Read it.... it's cute.... and true. It's a joke


EDITED TO ADD: LOL there are two different debates going on in one thread haha one about kids and one about guns. how often does that happen lol

[wombat2u2004]

EDITED TO ADD: LOL there are two different debates going on in one thread haha one about kids and one about guns. how often does that happen lol

Well we probably haven't ever seen that, but if we are to learn anything and do something about the recent spate of school shootings, we may be able to keep those two debates in different threads in the future....
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

What current restrictions on there on automatic weapons? Do you mean
in the size of the clip people can use? I think gun control is more necessary
now. Gun control does not mean no guns sold, it should mean no more
assault weapons shoud be sold in gun stores. There is no need for anyone
to have half the auto weapons now available for sale. IMO

Yes, I have to agree with that. There are certainly many weapons that are not necessary to be made available to the public.
Wom

[Lady's Human]

You cannot buy an AK-47 in the United States. With the exception of a select few people, they are banned. This also goes for M-16's, Uzis, and anything else that gets lumped into the category of "Assault weapons". (Pointless category, a damned knife used to stab someone is an "Assault Weapon")

You cannot buy so-called "Armor piercing" ammunition in the United States.

You cannot buy a firearm in the United States if you have been convicted of a Felony. Depending on the offense, there are also misdemeanors which bar sales of firearms and require the confiscation of firearms if you have possession prior to the offense, most notably Domestic Violence of any sort. (Wanna have fun with your gun owning target shooting ex? File a restraining order request. Your ex is now no longer allowed to have firearms, regardless of whether or not he/she actually DID anything)

You cannot buy a firearm in the United States if you have a history of mental illness. (Oops, congressionally mandated loophole there)

There are age restrictions, locale restrictions (I.E. no carrying in places where alcohol is sold for consumption), the list of gun restrictions is endless.

Why in hell do we need more laws when the police and the criminal justice system CANNOT ENFORCE THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS?

[Edwina's Secretary]

What about the giant loophole for buying at gun shows?

[Lady's Human]

What giant loophole for buying at gun shows?

Media myth.

If the seller is a licensed federal dealer (as most are), NICS and other checks still apply.

The paperwork still has to be processed and approved.

Of course, due to a decision of the SCOTUS the paperwork really doesn't matter, as they decided that lying on the forms is fine, as being truthful would be self incrimination for a felon.