I can't say I'm Sorry

[Puckstop31]

I'm sorry but I can't be doing with this. While I respect that everyone has a right to choose what they believe (I am still undecided) I really don't think it can be used as ammunition in a "debate"

Why?

[Marigold2]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way. And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help. Just because my compassion is different then yours does not make me ill. It's a free country and I can help whomever I so choose, give money or time to whatever charity I want.
Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans. As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.
Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.

[Puckstop31]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way.

But that is not what you said. You said "YOU" as in the tense of talking about ME. In your mind are Adolf Hitler and myself parallel people?

Also, would you leave me to die over a hamster? You never answered that for me. It is kind of important here.

And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help.

In your mind. To me, there is ALWAYS hope for every human soul.

Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

First, I don't "blow their brains out". Nice work overly dramatizing though. I do not hunt because I have some urge to kill. You just totally do not understand who I am. You have a sterotype of what a hunter is in your brain and I know nothing will ever change your mind, at least on a internet forum.

See, you suggesting that I would shoot my pets if I was "bored" just shows more and more how irrational and totally EMOTIONAL your ideas about hunting are.

Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans.

Except for male polar bears who eat young polar bears. Or... And....


Now..

As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.

Then you say...

Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.

Apparently IQ does have something to do with it. Tell me, what does evil mean to you? What makes a person evil to you?

[lizbud]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way. And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help. Just because my compassion is different then yours does not make me ill. It's a free country and I can help whomever I so choose, give money or time to whatever charity I want.
Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans. As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.
Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.

I understand what you are saying & I agree 100%. Don't let anyone
here manipulate this conversation into a personal one. Some folks are only
content when they are talking about themselves & every discussion turns
into a personal battle.

[Puckstop31]

I understand what you are saying & I agree 100%. Don't let anyone
here manipulate this conversation into a personal one. Some folks are only
content when they are talking about themselves & every discussion turns
into a personal battle.

How typically sophomoric of you Lizbud. Dodge the issue and attack what you think is my "style" of speaking.

[Blue_Frog]

I'm not expecting to change any minds here, but would like to voice my opinion.

I can't speak for Puck or anyone else on here, but I can speak for my moms boyfriend, who is also a hunter. He is one of the most caring men that I have met, and was devistated when his dog finally succumbed to terminal cancer.

He participates in the legal hunting of the White Tailed deer up here in Ontario as part of a population control method to prevent the winter starvation of many of the deer population. He will -not- shoot at a deer until he is guaranteed 100% to kill the animal with the first shot, and has come home from many hunts over many years without a kill. With the exception of my sister, no one in my family or their sig-others are a vegetarian, and I have a lot of respect for my moms boyfriend - he has made the decision to be a part of the food chain, and is seeing what he is eating. How many other 'meat eaters' out there can say the same? How many people get their meat neatly wrapped up in plastic without having any ties to the animal that it came from?

Not all hunters are gun toting yokels, out to shoot everything that moves. Many are caring, and many are environmentalists and care deeply about the world around them.

Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart.
...
Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans.

So, staring at an animal that has had its guts pulled out by coyotes and humanely ending its life with a bullet makes for less 'mental health'? Yes, this is a situation that my moms bf ran across while out in the woods at the farm, and he did what he had to. I'll let him know that hes unkind and uncaring and has a lack of goodness of heart. Because all hunters are uncaring murderers.

Animals are not always nice or caring to each other. Animals are canabilistic, animals will kill their own young, and predators will toy with a kill and occasionally eat animals while they are still alive (ever see an outdoor kitty playing with a fieldmouse?). I'm sorry if this is graphic, but it is true.

Canabilism?
http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/php...8dfe1aa5c956d8
http://ladywildlife.com/animal/canni...inanimals.html


EDIT: quote removed as being inadvertantly offensive, as not indended that way.

[sparks19]

Thank you Blue Frog.... that was very well put. I guess it is just hard for those on the outside looking in to see beyond their view point. I'm sure not many have spent time with or talking to a true hunter about what they do. They have their opinion and that is fine..... but IMO it is nothing but stereotypical dribble about what they THINK really happens and how they think those hunters are in life and how things work in their mind.

Like your step father ... my husband is one of the most respectful, caring, kind and helpful men I know.

[Miss Z]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[lizbud]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little
thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Thank you very much for your imput. You make great points. I almost
asked Karen to lock this thread because some people don't seem to be
able to accept anothers opinions for what they are. Their opinions, no more
no less.People should be able to express a thought without be attacked and
insulted because of it. Geeze, it just a discussion, everyone's thoughts are
worth hearing even if you don't agree with them.Chill already.

[Blue_Frog]

I'm one of the guilty parties for dragging this topic, well... off topic. Sorry bout that.

So, back on track ...

---

After doing some more research, this has me rather concerned about that area in general, for the seals and other creatures living there (outside of the hunting aspect) -- the link below has graphs and stuff in it for anyone interested.

http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dimages/cus...ming_seals.pdf

If warm years with reduced ice coverage become the norm
– as appears to be the case – there will likely be additional effects
on ice-breeding seals, including both harp and hooded seals
(Johnston et al. 2005, Lavigne 2006). These include possible
effects on timing of reproduction (Lavigne and Kovacs 1988)
and the loss of critical breeding habitat. They also include
potential effects on fish and invertebrates, leading to changes in
availability of prey for seals, potential effects on seal predators,
e.g. killer whales, Orcinus orca, and concomitant effects on seal
condition, growth, reproductive success, and survival. A recent
examination of the potential effects of global warming on
marine mammals included harp and hooded seals among the
species expected to experience a reduction in the size of their
ranges if global warming continues (Learmonth et al. 2006).

Additional new research related links --

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=339547
(originally publised by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association)

http://canadianveterinarians.net/Sho...ResourceID=378

http://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/App/WsvPa...?ID=1&Lang=eng
General interest, Ice Flow Data (Canadian Ice Service)

[sparks19]

Thank you very much for your imput. You make great points. I almost
asked Karen to lock this thread because some people don't seem to be
able to accept anothers opinions for what they are. Their opinions, no more
no less.People should be able to express a thought without be attacked and
insulted because of it. Geeze, it just a discussion, everyone's thoughts are
worth hearing even if you don't agree with them.Chill already.

You mean kind of like How Dr goodnow was attacked for her view point earlier in the thread? or is it only uncalled for when it is the other opinion? I honestly don't see anything like you describe above except for where someone was called a crazy lady for not sharing the same opinion... and that was quickly put to rest from both sides... which is nice. But that is neither here nor there now.

Blue Frog..... Very interesting links. Lots of good information in there..... a good read and lots of info to mull over.

this is totally off topic but we watched a special the other night about caribou and Wolves and how the wolves depend on the migration pattern of the Caribou to feed their young. if that migration pattern changes they are left to starve to death because there is literally not much else to prey on in the tundra for the Wolves. I would have thought there would be at least something else for them to prey on but there really isn't and it was very interesting to see how much they depend on ONE species to survive.... they sometimes don't eat for months. It makes me wonder what the true predator/prey ratio is for seals and the like.

[Puckstop31]

Thank you very much for your imput. You make great points. I almost
asked Karen to lock this thread because some people don't seem to be
able to accept anothers opinions for what they are. Their opinions, no more
no less.People should be able to express a thought without be attacked and
insulted because of it. Geeze, it just a discussion, everyone's thoughts are
worth hearing even if you don't agree with them.Chill already.

Hmmm....

Like when you asked certain people to edit posts because they said things that were offensive to YOU? I was the target of the "offensive" stuff and it did not bother me one bit.

The double standard you constantly display is amazing. Political Correctness at it's worst. You claim to be fair, but the only viewpoints you suppress are ones opposite your own.

Look up the word facist and tell me what you find.

[Sophist]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Once again, "No religion, go by your morals"?

You cannot do that. I have not relied on religious arguments, but you cannot promote moral or opinion or emotion-based stances for a debate, and then say religion can't be a part of that.

For most people, even if they aren't actively and staunchly religious, religion and morals are pretty inseperably intertwined.

[sparks19]

Once again, "No religion, go by your morals"?

You cannot do that. I have not relied on religious arguments, but you cannot promote moral or opinion or emotion-based stances for a debate, and then say religion can't be a part of that.

For most people, even if they aren't actively and staunchly religious, religion and morals are pretty inseperably intertwined.

Thank you......

I thought that was just KNOWN. Where do you think my morals and beliefs stem from? MY FAITH. How can you ask me questions on my morals and beliefs and then tell me I can't bring up the subject that played the biggest part in the molding of my morals and beliefs. I know not everyone believes what I believe so that is why they say you shouldn't bring religious beliefs into a debate.... but when it is a question of your morals and beliefs it can't be done. I am not telling them they must believe what I believe.... I'm just giving my opinion just like everyone else.... if my opinion includes religious content well than thats how it is.

[wombat2u2004]

Thank you Blue Frog.... that was very well put. I guess it is just hard for those on the outside looking in to see beyond their view point. I'm sure not many have spent time with or talking to a true hunter about what they do. They have their opinion and that is fine..... but IMO it is nothing but stereotypical dribble about what they THINK really happens and how they think those hunters are in life and how things work in their mind.

Like your step father ... my husband is one of the most respectful, caring, kind and helpful men I know.

A true hunter huh ???? I'm not dribbling here when I tell you that I USED to be one of those. Tonite when I come home from work....I will post exactly some stories about what I once was....and dispel some of these furfies about true hunters.
Wom