I can't say I'm Sorry

[Cataholic]

I do not eat meat for several reasons- the primary one concering the way the animals are 'slaughtered'. I do not find it humane. I have seen the videos and read the literature. I have had people remark to me, "do you think you are making any difference"? In my mind, I am.

I have also heard, but, cannot state for certain, that the leather used (excluding the exotics) in shoes/handbags, clothing (pants, skirts) is a by-product, and the animal has been killed for meat, not for the article of clothing.

Does it make a difference? It does to me, but, for the record, I am a pretty big wearer of 'pleather' shoes...just too hard on them to pay anything more than I have to.

I do not buy leather articles, nor shun them necessarily. However, as I have become more enlightened on the subject, I do find my purchases tend to be more 'humane' than not. Am I up for some award? Don't think so, but, I do strongly disagree with the argument that seal hunting, or any other species hunted by humans, is some humanitarian effort on behalf of the hunter, and that this is all just a big ol' cheap way to feed the family argument.

Ain't nothin' sporty about killing. As I have said other times, when someone tells me they 'hunt', I have an immediate mind change about that person. Is that right? Is that judgmental? Absolutely. Is it my 'right'? Absolutely. Hey, if that person has a right to kill an animal with a gun, I get the right to dislike the act and the actor.

[lizbud]

Your last post is much to long to quote entirely, but would like to
respond to this paragraph,

"Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have. "

I really would like to see & read any links or references you have used to
base your opinions on, so please enlighten me.Post any links to info you
have. Thanks.

[Sophist]

Your last post is much to long to quote entirely, but would like to
respond to this paragraph,

"Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have. "

I really would like to see & read any links or references you have used to
base your opinions on, so please enlighten me.Post any links to info you
have. Thanks.

My opinions have been formed over numerous years. If you'd like to pick anything you actually question or would like to know more about, I would be glad to foffer some more support for it. However, I would also encourage you to look at the numerous links I have already shared.

[lizbud]

My opinions have been formed over numerous years. If you'd like to pick anything you actually question or would like to know more about, I would be glad to foffer some more support for it. However, I would also encourage you to look at the numerous links I have already shared.

I'm sorry you couldn't be more helpful now, but I will search back through
all the posts & try to get an idea of what facts interested you.

I'll get back to you next week sometime, after i've found the links.

[Blue_Frog]

Sorry no time for a more cohesive post -- heres links pro, con and neutral to make up your own minds -- have to head home

against the seal hunt
http://www.harpseals.org/hunters/index.html
http://www.environmentvoters.org/sea...framework.html
http://www.canadiansealhunt.com/
seal hunt petition -- http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/c...0000_Seals.htm
http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/p..._a_chance.html
http://www.antisealingcoalition.ca/b...alhunt2007.php
http://www.nativejournal.ca/pages/*2...v.html#anchor4

pro seal hunt
Seal Management -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque...-rapport_e.htm
Includes an entire breakdown of the Industry from a government perspective -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque...aits2007_e.htm
Myths about the Seal Hunt -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/seal_phoque_en.pdf
Collapse of the Cod Fisery and Seal Management -- http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj17/mason1.html
Standing Commitee on Fisheries and Oceans -- http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/C...FOPOEV29-E.PDF
http://freenewfoundlandlabrador.blog...t-protest.html
http://www.sealharvest.ca/html/press_releases.html

neutral seal hunt links
phone survey by the gobbment, with the results -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque...ionnaire_e.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/
A discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://boards.self.com/thread.jspa;j...ssageID=258793&
Another discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://www.leasticoulddo.com/forum/l...hp/t16572.html
http://www.imma.org/fishcomm/
http://futuresheet.com/2007/04/04/wa...das-seal-hunt/

other 'culls' that occurr...
Alligators -- http://myfwc.com/gators/
Deer -- http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/wi/0426deer.htm
Bear -- http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle316085.ece
*note: the bear hunt was cancelled due to public pressure. See here for nusiance bear issues -- http://www.ofah.org/Bear/News.cfm?P=1 and http://www.northshorebears.com/downl...Assessment.pdf *

[Sophist]

Blue Frog... I tried posting some different pro and con cites a ways back, hopefully yours are more-clicked upon than mine.


I look forward to reading through what you've gathered, though. Thanks for your efforts to provide us a variety of views to sort through.

[lizbud]

Sorry no time for a more cohesive post -- heres links pro, con and neutral to make up your own minds -- have to head home

against the seal hunt
http://www.harpseals.org/hunters/index.html
http://www.environmentvoters.org/sea...framework.html
http://www.canadiansealhunt.com/
seal hunt petition -- http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/c...0000_Seals.htm
http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/p..._a_chance.html
http://www.antisealingcoalition.ca/b...alhunt2007.php
http://www.nativejournal.ca/pages/*2...v.html#anchor4

pro seal hunt
Seal Management -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque...-rapport_e.htm
Includes an entire breakdown of the Industry from a government perspective -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque...aits2007_e.htm
Myths about the Seal Hunt -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/seal_phoque_en.pdf
Collapse of the Cod Fisery and Seal Management -- http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj17/mason1.html
Standing Commitee on Fisheries and Oceans -- http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/C...FOPOEV29-E.PDF
http://freenewfoundlandlabrador.blog...t-protest.html
http://www.sealharvest.ca/html/press_releases.html

neutral seal hunt links
phone survey by the gobbment, with the results -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque...ionnaire_e.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/
A discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://boards.self.com/thread.jspa;j...ssageID=258793&
Another discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://www.leasticoulddo.com/forum/l...hp/t16572.html
http://www.imma.org/fishcomm/
http://futuresheet.com/2007/04/04/wa...das-seal-hunt/

other 'culls' that occurr...
Alligators -- http://myfwc.com/gators/
Deer -- http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/wi/0426deer.htm
Bear -- http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle316085.ece
*note: the bear hunt was cancelled due to public pressure. See here for nusiance bear issues -- http://www.ofah.org/Bear/News.cfm?P=1 and http://www.northshorebears.com/downl...Assessment.pdf *

Thanks Blue Frog.

[Sophist]

I'm sorry you couldn't be more helpful now, but I will search back through
all the posts & try to get an idea of what facts interested you.

I'll get back to you next week sometime, after i've found the links.

Yeah, waiting until the end of the debate when I've been one of the very few providing outside sources and then just sying "PROVE ALL OF IT!" is a little tricky, at best.

Sorry you find me unhelpful, but I don't keep a current list of citations on my entire inventory of thought processes... I tried, but the backpack got too heavy .

And please, don't worry about the facts that interest me, let me know what you are interested in knowing more about.

If there are any specific issues you'd like me to try to clarify or offer you some sources that support my view, though, please do let me know and I would be happy to comply as time allows.

[Puckstop31]

Ain't nothin' sporty about killing.

You obviously have never been Wild Turkey hunting...

But....

As I have said other times, when someone tells me they 'hunt', I have an immediate mind change about that person. Is that right? Is that judgmental? Absolutely. Is it my 'right'? Absolutely. Hey, if that person has a right to kill an animal with a gun, I get the right to dislike the act and the actor.

I applaude you for being one of the few people I know who have a anti-hunting view that are willing to say this.

[Argranade]

You obviously have never been Wild Turkey hunting...

I don't belive hunting any living thing should be sporty or fun,

That's like saying '' You obviously have never been dog hunting''

Turkeys & Dogs can both feel pain in the same way, there should be no difference.

Just to make things clear I'm not saying your going to shoot dogs I'm just giving an exsample.

I'm only up for hunting if you need to use the animals for food, I mean the HOLE animal .. don't just chop off it's head, skin the fur and leave the rest of the carcass. Sometimes in casses animals do over populate but that's nature and I would rather leave it be but of course that's not going to happen with humans around.

[sparks19]

I don't belive hunting any living thing should be sporty or fun,

That's like saying '' You obviously have never been dog hunting''

Turkeys & Dogs can both feel pain in the same way, there should be no difference.

Just to make things clear I'm not saying your going to shoot dogs I'm just giving an exsample.

I'm only up for hunting if you need to use the animals for food, I mean the HOLE animal .. don't just chop off it's head, skin the fur and leave the rest of the carcass. Sometimes in casses animals do over populate but that's nature and I would rather leave it be but of course that's not going to happen with humans around.

he meant that it was not just as easy as firing your weapon blindly into the forest as some people believe hunting is. Turkey hunting actually requires hours of work.

But just think..... some of those people that hunt are probably buying less store bought meat from animals that come from slaughterhouses etc... etc. I have heard people say that if you are going to eat meat you should eat free range because they are treated more humanely.... well... what is more free range than that

[wombat2u2004]

But just think..... some of those people that hunt are probably buying less store bought meat from animals that come from slaughterhouses etc... etc. I have heard people say that if you are going to eat meat you should eat free range because they are treated more humanely.... well... what is more free range than that

SOME of those people ????? So what you are saying is that the others are just doing it for fun....???? Right ????
And exactly HOW could someone hunting something in the wild be more humane than those who kill abbatoir slaughtered animals ???? They have laws in place exactly how animals are killed in slaughterhouses, and I know for a fact that it is VERY humane. As for hunting....humane ??? Nope, not buying into that one.....I've seen the results of too many hunts in my life, a wounded animal is sometimes tracked for hours and hours, trying to escape with half of it's gut hanging out, and even sometimes the hunters lose the animal, or simply just couldn't be bothered to put in the time necessary to finish the hunt. Some of these animals take weeks to die......I have seen it....many times. If you think for one moment that hunters are humane, then you should have another think coming. How many hunters do you know who are such fantastic shots that we have a "one shot, instantaneous kill" situation. NOT very many.

As for jobs required by the people of Newfoundland, which is their reason to continue these hunts.....well if my memory serves me right....just how humane were the coal pits of Cape Breton ???? Where children no more than 12 years old worked their lives away in the coal mines ???? Only to die of exhaustion or coughing their blood filled lungs up, to eke out a living, so that they could actually have something to eat ??? What for ??? So that someone could get rich !!!! Someone who didn't give a damn about those kids lives. Tragic ???? You betcha !!!! So why did they stop that ???? If responsible people hadn't stepped in at the time....I'll bet my butt that that practice would still be considered by those who care nothing about making money ANY way they can. And so it is the same now with the seal pups.....the dollars are involved, it's as simple as that.

Anyway....who are we to play God ???? To say who or what dies, or who and what lives ???
Wom

[Marigold2]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt. Is that a big problem in the city, seeing homeless people with rifles shooting stray dogs, cats, rats, birds for food? They are usually in the city panhandling or going to a food bank. I grew up in the country and I have never met anyone who had to hunt for food. They wanted to but didn't need to meat to live. Plant a veggie garden, can some veggies for God's sake.
These seal hunters don't give a damn how those seals die. They are beating them to death while these animals are screaming and crying in pain. They don't care if that baby dies the first blow or the 5 or 10th. They are there for the money. It doesn't matter how the seal dies, just that they make their quoto. There are plenty of other ways to make a living them beating a baby to death. And if they are too stupid to figure that out do us a favor and don't have kids.
I have no respect for hunters or murderes as I call them. Nor would I help one who is starving or bleeding to death. I have no problem walking away from a dying hunter. Do I put an animals life in front of a person? Yes I would. If there was a rapist or drug dealer, child molester in a burning building and a pet hamster and I only had time to get one out, hey I'm picking the hamster. That sweet innocent creature never harmed anyone, the person did. A worthless, evil, mean person's life is not worth anything.
Does the mother dog or mommy cat love her babies any less, often they love their babies more then humans. They don't stab, burn, murder, abuse, abandon, molest their kids. We as humans do hundreds of times a day.
Oh and ants and fleas are insects not animals. They don't have the same nerve receptors so I have no problem sleeping if I step on an ant. Dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, deat ant dead ant.....lalalalalla

[Puckstop31]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt. Is that a big problem in the city, seeing homeless people with rifles shooting stray dogs, cats, rats, birds for food? They are usually in the city panhandling or going to a food bank. I grew up in the country and I have never met anyone who had to hunt for food. They wanted to but didn't need to meat to live. Plant a veggie garden, can some veggies for God's sake.
These seal hunters don't give a damn how those seals die. They are beating them to death while these animals are screaming and crying in pain. They don't care if that baby dies the first blow or the 5 or 10th. They are there for the money. It doesn't matter how the seal dies, just that they make their quoto. There are plenty of other ways to make a living them beating a baby to death. And if they are too stupid to figure that out do us a favor and don't have kids.
I have no respect for hunters or murderes as I call them. Nor would I help one who is starving or bleeding to death. I have no problem walking away from a dying hunter. Do I put an animals life in front of a person? Yes I would. If there was a rapist or drug dealer, child molester in a burning building and a pet hamster and I only had time to get one out, hey I'm picking the hamster. That sweet innocent creature never harmed anyone, the person did. A worthless, evil, mean person's life is not worth anything.
Does the mother dog or mommy cat love her babies any less, often they love their babies more then humans. They don't stab, burn, murder, abuse, abandon, molest their kids. We as humans do hundreds of times a day.
Oh and ants and fleas are insects not animals. They don't have the same nerve receptors so I have no problem sleeping if I step on an ant. Dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, deat ant dead ant.....lalalalalla

I love it... I love the statement "ants and fleas are insects, not animals". Where in your brain does THAT justification come up? To make you feel better I suppose?

What if the choice was between a Human child and that hamster?

Seek help m'am. I'd hate for you to end up in jail if you really did make a choice like that someday.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt.

I don't think you are allowed to hunt them....