I can't say I'm Sorry

[wombat2u2004]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

[DrKym]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

[wombat2u2004]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

I must point out here Doc, that I do NOT wish death upon those who carry out this periodical butchering, nor from what I have read here on this thread does anyone else. I'm sure we just simply want this practice to end.
And as for underlying issues ???? Have I not already addressed that ????
The total waste of foodstuffs on this planet because those who produce it have not the means to distribute it amongst those who would go hungry ????
Or because it's simply uneconomical for them to do so ????
This whole practice of culling is all about money....nothing more and nothing less....so just how are we to address the underlying issue of greed ???
The fishermen compete with the seals, to see how big a catch they can get.......solution ??? The seals get more....so lets kill the seals....thats human greed in all of it's glory at work here.
If the world ran out of oil.....would oil workers just sit on a rock and scratch their heads and wait until they died ???? I think not, they'd go out and get another job.
Wom

[Cataholic]

I cannot support the seal 'hunters'. It is inhumane, and all the argument of "they can't reason", "they die quick enough", "humans need it", just doesn't cut it for me. Kind of like saying I have the right to club to death the man lying in a coma. Heck, he can't feel it, right? Animals *deserve* dignity, respect, compassion, humane treatment. All animals. Humans *should* know better. Sadly, that little green thing gets in the way. And, I am not referring to jealousy.

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

[catlady1945]

I cannot support the seal 'hunters'. It is inhumane, and all the argument of "they can't reason", "they die quick enough", "humans need it", just doesn't cut it for me. Kind of like saying I have the right to club to death the man lying in a coma. Heck, he can't feel it, right? Animals *deserve* dignity, respect, compassion, humane treatment. All animals. Humans *should* know better. Sadly, that little green thing gets in the way. And, I am not referring to jealousy.

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

Too true!!! I am sick of this hunt. It is unnecessary and inhumane. I know people have to make a living, and they have been doing this for years -- but come on, there ARE other ways.

I am also sick of people who hunt for "sport" - yeah, really sporting to use an assault rifle on a deer.

[sparks19]

Too true!!! I am sick of this hunt. It is unnecessary and inhumane. I know people have to make a living, and they have been doing this for years -- but come on, there ARE other ways.

I am also sick of people who hunt for "sport" - yeah, really sporting to use an assault rifle on a deer.

That deer hunt you hate so much feeds a lot of starving people..... it's not all just to have a rack to hang on the wall. Many many hunters donate their meat to charities that give it to starving families.

and it prevents a lot of deer from starving to death in the winter. YOu may think it's a load of crap.... but it's true.... deer starve to death ALL the time around here because they are SO over populated they can't find enough to eat in the winter. Especially if the summer has a drought.... nothing grows.

[Catty1]

"underlying causes"

Aside from the huge picture ones, try looking up the unemployment stats and income levels in Newfoundland.

Bleak. Very bleak.

I am not saying the seal hunt is the best solution at all. But it means money to buy food and other luxuries...

[catlady1945]

That deer hunt you hate so much feeds a lot of starving people..... it's not all just to have a rack to hang on the wall. Many many hunters donate their meat to charities that give it to starving families.

and it prevents a lot of deer from starving to death in the winter. YOu may think it's a load of crap.... but it's true.... deer starve to death ALL the time around here because they are SO over populated they can't find enough to eat in the winter. Especially if the summer has a drought.... nothing grows.

Yes.....those hunters are real humanitarians!

[Sophist]

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.


And when I see people who I think could be using their passion and energy for a lot of good if they were only better informed, I like to try to inform them if I can, or at least make them aware of other view points.


If you can provide some logical counter-arguments, instead of merely emotional ones, I'd be glad to listen and consider them.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.


And when I see people who I think could be using their passion and energy for a lot of good if they were only better informed, I like to try to inform them if I can, or at least make them aware of other view points.


If you can provide some logical counter-arguments, instead of merely emotional ones, I'd be glad to listen and consider them.

Wow, you just spent the last four pages vehemently and descriptively defending baby seal clubbing. If I believed in it, I'd have to say that's pretty bad karma.

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

[Sophist]

Wow, you just spent the last four pages vehemently and descriptively defending baby seal clubbing. If I believed in it, I'd have to say that's pretty bad karma.

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

Karma is your counter-argument? Meh .

Humane should not be used in conjunction with killing... does that also apply to terminally ill pets being euthanized?

Have you given any thought to the logistics of your solutions? I will certainly think on it, but just out of curiousity... what land would you clear? How would you convince the seals to whelp and molt there? You realize it is a migratory species, so one area would be totally insufficient, right?

More natural predators... which predators would you boost, and how? What breeding programs, how would you limit it's impact on the predator populations extant? Do you know what a disaster trying to introduce more predators can be?

Lots of concerns with that option... plus, again, the people who use the meat, fur, oil, and pharmaceutical products are still going to find some way to meet those 'needs'. Any suggestions for them? More farmed animals? How is THAT a better option?

[columbine]

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

Or even enforcing existing regulations against habitat-destroying fishing practices (bottom-dragging, fishing in spawning grounds) that net huge short-term profits but destroy the underpinnings of the fishery that would otherwise be both keeping the seals from starving and the humans from having to hunt them to feed their families?

Oh, that would cost money and keep somebody from being reelected. Forget it.

Love, Columbine

[lizbud]

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.

Well this sounds like a smart ass answer, if I've ever hear one.


I find it very strange that you cannot understand people would be a little
emotional on the subject of animals suffering & dying in a horrible way.Let
me just say, I find your not understanding that fact to be very strange and
unsettling.

p.s. Your profile lists no animals at all, don't you have any pets?

[Sophist]

Well this sounds like a smart ass answer, if I've ever hear one.


I find it very strange that you cannot understand people would be a little
emotional on the subject of animals suffering & dying in a horrible way.Let
me just say, I find your not understanding that fact to be very strange and
unsettling.

p.s. Your profile lists no animals at all, don't you have any pets?

Yes, I have previously shared pictures of my three dogs and one of my snakes. I have other pets, but haven't got around to sharing them yet (their photos, anyway). In addition, I also do rescue work, both through shelters and outside of shelters since there are none in my city that will work with reptiles.


I don't think I have ever said it was not an emotional thing or that I didn't understand being emotional about it. I simply assert that logic should be incorporated into forming deep-seated opinions, and really should be used to carry on debates.

In fact, I have repeatedly reiterated that it is a horrifying thing. I just don't think that that makes it okay to ignore the facts, or to blind yourself to the unfortunately very reasonable elements of it. There are both drawbacks and positive factors here. It provides meat, oil, elements to be used in pharmaceuticals, income, population control, and fills the bloody desire for furs for people to parade around in, which would otherwise be filled much more cruelly using farmed animals.

In addition, if everyone here is this passionate about it, then that could be a lot of energy put in to changing the worst aspects of the hunt in a reasonable way. But putting all that energy into just futily vilifying the hunters or saying that the hunt should be banned, or the tools banned, it just isn't going to help. If PETA and all their money, and lots of high-profile media outlets and celebrities who people listen to just because they are rich and famous can't accomplish that, then PT really can't hope to either.

If you want to create any sort of change or difference, you have to first understand the real motivations behind this hunt. It isn't 100% for money and sickos getting their jollies. You have to understand that, and choose your battles carefully and logically, and try to lobby for change in the areas that make sense and are likely to actually be listened to.

Just out of curiousity, I have actually researched this a lot and written letters and recieved responses from several organizations involved in Canada on both sides trying to understand how I can influence this and the areas it is most needed in, and the ways in which to accomplish it... how many of the people who are so quick to attack me for approaching this rationally have done anything but rant on PT about it? I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume none of you have done anything else, but I would really like to know how you have tried, and what response you got, if any.

I have never said the seal hunt was ok, a perfect little system with no problems, no moral uncertainties, nothing but rainbows and butterflies... I am an animal lover despite insinuations to the contrary. I do work to help animals around me, and I try to find ways to work on problems like this. And to be perfectly honest, the people who come out swinging and raving based only on emotions, spreading more ugliness, with no idea of any of the inter-connected problems make the problems a lot worse, because they get people sincerely trying to work out the best compromises branded as crazy animal nuts also, and they make those in positions to effect change less and less inclined to listen.

If you don't like the hunt, do something about it. But be smart and somewhat rational about it. Weigh at least a little bit of human interest in with the animal's interest. Listen to your own arguments and really think about whether or not someone using your words and reasoning could convince you of something you weren't certain about. Don't just sit here and try to make me agree with you because it makes you feel like you've made a difference and done the right thing.

Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have.

Well, as I pretty much said in my first post, people think that not being hate-filled about this makes me a bad animal lover. Oh, well. I am confident in what I do for animals, and how I feel about animals. That is good enough to give me peace of mind about the issue. So to everyone discussing karma, hinting that I don't even own pets, etc... that line of attack isn't going to work on me. I care too much about this issue to flip out. Flipping out just makes it that much easier for people to write off everything you feel and say as rubbish. I'll maintain and hope that those who have shown a somewhat open mind and a desire to learn more will study up on all aspects and come to their own well-informed conclusions.

[Sophist]

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.