I can't say I'm Sorry

[DrKym]

Is there any position on this subject that you won't support? Talk about
flip-flopping.


I really don't believe the HSUS is considered some radical group and they
have much to say on this subject. Check it out. Thanks.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/p...ian_seal_hunt/

I support the rights of the hunters to make their living, I do not agree with the method of the cull, but I am aware that the cull is necessary.
That is not flip flopping, I would hate for any of those men to lose their lives in their job.

[Sophist]

Ok, I have to ask out of curiousity to everyone who is arguing that they are against the hunt because the method of killing is inhumane... why do you feel that correctly using a hakapik or large-caliber rifle is inherently inhumane?

I have a few expert who weigh in on it's being humane, but I seriously would like to hear what it is that seems so inherently wrong about this method. It is at least as quick as a gunshot, and I feel more 'sporting' (in a way, not really sure how to say it, really) than shooting from a distant ship.

But regardless, here are some of the expert's quotes I have dredged up offa the web:

First one supporting the Canadian seal hunts, since that seems to be the only one I hear people here getting worked up about:

"The group notes that the Canadian Harp Seal Hunt is professional and highly regulated... It has the potential to serve as a model to improve humane practices and reduce animal suffering within other hunts."
---The Independent Veterinarian Working Group



And one not really in support per se, but a good point:

“The harp seal question is entirely emotional. We have to be logical. We have to aim our activity first to the endangered species... We have to be logical."
--- Jaques Cousteau



“We do not support the killing of any animals, but we do consider the slaughter of the seals in Newfoundland to be humane.”
---Trevor Scott, Executive Director of the International Society for the Protection of Animals



“As far as we are concerned the present regulations ensure that the best possible methods of humane killing are adhered to. Humane killing is not an issue.”
--- The Canadian Federation of Humane Societies


“I have examined the craniums of thousands of seal pups and I have never observed one that did not have massive hemorrhage in the brain, which is an indication that the animal was rendered unconscious and therefore incapable of feeling any pain...
Death was rapid and humane. The choice of killing method must favour the seal and not the observer."
---Dr. H.C. Roswell, DVM – Dept. of Pathology – University of Ottawa and founder of the Canadian Council on Animal Care



“The Gulf of St. Lawrence seal hunt as it is now conducted and as far as the young seals are concerned, is without a doubt one of the most humane slaughtering operations I have ever witnessed.
The greatest immorality in the seal hunting controversy has been the reckless, deliberate campaign of racial discrimination and hatred which has been deliberately fostered against the people of Newfoundland and of Canada by groups and individuals whose primary aim is to raise funds, particularly in the United States and Europe.”
---Tom Hughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Societies and former British Columbia SPCA executive.


“From a total of 509 animals examined at the time, there was reported to be only one other case of the animal not being rendered unconscious. This appears to be a fantastically high average of humane killing”.
---Dr. Keith Ronald – Dean of the College of biological science – university of Guelph


/// sorry, lotsa editing for typos and such.

[DrKym]

Sophist,
I have not read nor had time to go through the information, if it is as swift and humane as you are describing then I will change my view. My issue is simply with the amount of bloodshed. I hunt deer, moose and most other viable game each year, I use the most effective means of killing quickly and humanely. I have never hunted a seal, nor would I, I can only base what I know of hunting the animals I know with what I have seen in media. Therefore I am not as qualified to make a judgement just an opinion, after I read the information you have posted, may I get back with you on the method used?

[buttercup132]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

[wombat2u2004]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

[DrKym]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

[wombat2u2004]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

I must point out here Doc, that I do NOT wish death upon those who carry out this periodical butchering, nor from what I have read here on this thread does anyone else. I'm sure we just simply want this practice to end.
And as for underlying issues ???? Have I not already addressed that ????
The total waste of foodstuffs on this planet because those who produce it have not the means to distribute it amongst those who would go hungry ????
Or because it's simply uneconomical for them to do so ????
This whole practice of culling is all about money....nothing more and nothing less....so just how are we to address the underlying issue of greed ???
The fishermen compete with the seals, to see how big a catch they can get.......solution ??? The seals get more....so lets kill the seals....thats human greed in all of it's glory at work here.
If the world ran out of oil.....would oil workers just sit on a rock and scratch their heads and wait until they died ???? I think not, they'd go out and get another job.
Wom

[Sophist]

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.

[wombat2u2004]

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.

Bullied ??? Evil ???? You're on the wrong side of the fence ol fella !!!!
Wombat

[Miss Z]

My views on hunting of any kind have got me into trouble before so I won't go into details. Lets just say I accept no excuses for killing another creature.

Sophist, I read your arguement with interest and can allow you to keep your own views, however I am not convinced about hackapicks. Sure, perhaps when used correctly they can kill a baby seal instantly, and when you think about it, that's easy to do even with a club. When the back end of the skull is smashed and the spinal cord (along with vital parts of the brain, can't remember the exact scientific name for the life of me) are damaged beyond repair. One dead seal pup.

However, who's to say these hunters hit the bullseye every time? I bet they don't even get one out of ten. It's like shooting yourself in the head, sounds simple enough, but there's actually a specific place to shoot to kill yourself instantaneously. I'm sure the sight of a pulpy, bloodied seal carcass is the evidence of a couple of misses.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.

As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

Exactly. Lets face it, no other animal purposefully culls another to 'help' it. I can hear enough excuses until I'm blue in the face, but when faced with the arguement of overpopulation, well, that's humans' fault. WE are the ones who restrict a species habitat. WE are the ones who upset ecosystems by exterminating certain predators/prey for our pleasure and creating disaster by the unnatural booms of species that follows. And WE are the ones who are going to have to find a better solution than just mindless killing.

And yup, I'm vegetarian too. Don't quite know how vegetarianism got into this matter, but oh well.

[Sophist]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

Actually, the harp seal pups can't be culled until after a certain molt, which isn't finished until the pups are more than a month old.

All the mothers memorize their pups scent in the first day or two, and then really only have contact with them when they need to nurse. It has been established that during the maternal care period, pups spend about 5% of their time with their mother, and then only to feed. If a pup loses its mother, it is allowed to starve by the other mothers, who will only give milk by the scent.

The mothers abandon their pups completely by the time they are two weeks old (usually by 12 days old). The females breed two weeks after giving birth, and then take off and never have anything to do with their pups again. By the time of culling, the mothers are pretty much all expecting again and long gone.

There is no paternal involvement.

Where is the 'broken family' element coming in? They migrate together to whelp and breed, and that is as much of a connection as the seals ever have with each other.

Can an animal with no apparent familial bonding, who abandons its offspring for good and has no further contact, really be asserted to experience grief over the death? There is really no evidence to support that the families would even have an awareness of the death.

These mothers molt, then leave the whelping area where the pups remain for at least a year until their next pup is ready to be born.


Don't get me wrong, I do believe animals are capable of grief. I just don't think that is likely to be the case in this scenario. Just because animals can think and feel does not mean they all think and feel exactly the same way humans do.


And lastly, if you are arguing that the seals are fathers and brothers who love each other, and are being killed and left grieving, and then say in the same breath that the hunters deserve the same... how is that not saying the hunters and/or their families deserve to die?