California AB1634 Mandatory Spay/Neuter (MSN)

[Giselle]

I was first strongly opposed to this bill, but now I am in favor of it.

However, there are some serious serious flaws. For one, dogs and cats are entirely different species. Thus, they need different time frames. 4 months for a cat is vastly different from 4 months for a dog. A 4-month-old dog is sorely underdeveloped and I'm a strong believer that a well-balanced dog should not be fixed until s/he is physically mature.

Additionally, their prerequisites for an animal to remain intact/be allowed to breed is in dire need of editing. This...

(1) The owner demonstrates, by providing a copy of his or her
business license and federal and state tax number, or by other means,
as determined by the local entity authorized to issue permits, that
he or she is doing business and is licensed as a breeder by the local
jurisdiction or its authorized local animal control agency.

... gives even more freedom to BYBs and puppy mills.

And this...

(4) The dog is trained, or is
documented as having been appropriately trained and actively used by
law enforcement agencies for law enforcement and rescue activities.

... is completely arbitrary. What qualifies as trained?! As far as anybody is concerned, a simple "Sit" could mean that the dog is trained.

This bill is a good idea and it's heading in the right direction. However, I'm hoping someone will create a better bill to take its place.

[SemaviLady]

This bill is a good idea and it's heading in the right direction. However, I'm hoping someone will create a better bill to take its place.

In reality, once a law that seems like a 'good idea' is in place, it is extremely difficult to change.

The fact remains that the data and analysis shows that MSN does not reduce the euth stats and creates more administrative issues. It divides the community into Us vs Them. Therefore it is illogical to support it.

A plan of action that will formulate public policy has to be to be based on fact and data.

BSL was promoted in a few areas, not enough people spoke out, and now it is getting out of control.

A famous quote- "In Germany, the Nazis first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Finally they came for me, but there was not one left to speak up." - Martin Niemoeller, Lutheran Pastor sent to Dachau Concentration Camp in 1938.

[crow_noir]

The serious flaws are what scare me.

If they're putting this much effort into this bill, why can't they just put the same effort into optional low-cost spay/neuters for the whole state? It would also be a lot more effective if they did a month long TNR program and got everyone involved. They should put as much effort into public education about smugglers and scams.

I was first strongly opposed to this bill, but now I am in favor of it.

However, there are some serious serious flaws. ...

[caseysmom]

I think its about time.

[CathyBogart]

That bill is a monstrosity and I couldn't have been happier to see it shot down. Their hearts are in the right place but the execution is all wrong.

[SemaviLady]

I think its about time.

Even though the premise behind MSN is not proven to work?

And at four months, treating every breed of dog exactly the same way as a kitten?

In 2006, Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania presented material on "Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs". This is part of a worldwide symposium of Animal professionals who have collected data on thousands of animals.

Their very interesting slide show is available to the public in a PDF document.
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

I am taking the liberty of posting some images here. I will however remove the images if asked. Everyone can go to the source and get the full document from above.













Do go check it out
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

I'm not advocating to stop spay and neuter, I am however advocating that the decision to spay or neuter a pet that is not from a shelter be the choice of the owner and the veterinarian to make for themselves.

The government should not be involved with forcing everyone to comply with policy that is not based on fact. As you can see above, this is NOT about HEALTHY PETS.

If I am asked to remove the slides, I will do so. There are many more, and more detail than I can put here.

But the main document is at this site which also has quite a bit of other animal health info in relation population control issues.
http://www.acc-d.org/

Once again, public policy should be based on facts. MSN has proven that it doesn't work. And from the facts above, it's quite clear that there is a lot of outdated information floating around. Some of the problem sets above are actually reasons that animals are surrendered to the shelters.

[CathyBogart]

I for one am VERY glad you posted these slides! There are other effects of early age altering that need to be considered.

For example, sex hormones play a role in the closing of the growth plates, so animals altered before they are done growing have a slightly different conformation, and some evidence suggests that athletic animals altered early run a higher risk of injury because of this conformation.

FORCING someone who wants to have a canine athlete or a working dog to put their animal at higher risk for something like and ACL injury is inhumane IMO.

[Lady's Human]

This should be a cautionary tale for ANYONE who says in response to a problem "Gee, I wish the Government would do something about that".

[SemaviLady]

I for one am VERY glad you posted these slides! There are other effects of early age altering that need to be considered.

Thanks Cathy. We'll see how long I can leave them up.

Here's a fact- Due to the forced nature of MSN, some canvassing of insurance companies for Veterinarians has taken place informally. It appears that malpractice coverage is going to go up -- to cover anticipated problems.

This will at the very least, indirectly affect free and discount neuter services.

The whole picture must to be taken into account.

One of my favorite web pages right now is http://saveourdogs.net/

[SemaviLady]

I now have official permission from the lead supervisor and scientist to use these captured images from the symposium slide show for this and multitude educational efforts. I will continue to ask people to go to the source to get original documents, as well.
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

Edited to provide easy link to this specific posting number for other lobbying efforts and forwarding.
------------------- 8< ------ cut here ------ 8< -------------------

From: James Serpell <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Dr. James Serpell - Mandatory Spay Neuter as Law in
California?
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:46:28 -0400

Dear Janice,

You are welcome to use the ACC&D presentation for your lobbying efforts.

The legislation appears to be ill-considered and premature considering
how little we know about the long-term impact of pediatric spay/neuter
on the health and behavior of dogs and cats. At 4 months of age, dogs
and cats are also too immature for us to be able to predict reliably
their adult temperament and physical soundness. The legislation as
written could therefore have a significantly adverse effect on our
future ability to select the best animals for breeding purposes.

You may quote me, if you like.

Kind regards,

James A. Serpell, PhD
Marie A. Moore Professor of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare,
Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society,
Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine,
University of Pennsylvania.

------------------- 8< ------ cut here ------ 8< -------------------

If you have already studied these images, scroll below for further information......

In 2006, Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania presented material on "Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs". This is part of a worldwide symposium of Animal professionals who have collected data on thousands of animals.

Their very interesting slide show is available to the public in a PDF document.
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

Additionally a significant collection of abstracts on spay/neuter and other important bill related issues can be found at http://www.ab1634.com/

It has now been shown without dispute that there is a need to research this matter more thoroughly because the outcome of the studies have not been promising in the support of pediatric S/N.

Realize that sensitized/reactive temperaments are among the things documented to be significantly increased with neuters. This involves pet animals that are part of children's lives throughout the STATE.

Furthermore, the bill endorses bulk production of animals for profit but seeks to control everyone else.

My initial letter of inquiry to Dr. Serpell included the following (in part):

The language of the law itself doesn't actually address the fact that there are no dogs at 4 months of age that qualify for the automatic higher permit fees and the only exemptions provided are continual 75 day renewals in coordination with a veterinarian up through the time that the dog can actually qualify for phenotype testing (2 years and more) such as orthopedic soundness (hips, elbows, shoulders, etc) correct character, working ethic, lack of sound and touch sensitivity (storms), etc. Dogs that are shown in conformation can only go to a show at 6 months, working dogs require more time for structural maturity, so entire litters of 5 to 15 puppies would be necessitate decision making at a point where all these things cannot be determined. The administrative issues will include vets and owners individually applying for repeated extensions of permit fees. This will include dogs used in police training, search and rescue, considerable impact.

Genetic diversity in purebreds will be affected since more decisions will be forced when an untested working dog is merely four months or less in age. The average COI's within breeds will be affected and protector alleles could further be lost.

<--snippage: bill information detail omitted-->

I have contacted local vets and apparently the California Veterinary Medical Association has filed an opinion in favor of the bill despite vets in the trenches feeling differently on the matter, and with malpractice insurance companies considering that state mandated neuter of pediatric animals will have far reaching implications. So I understand that they are not of one mind.

Basically, 90% of owned dogs in the state of California, never become part of the shelter overcrowding problem. The so-called overpopulation problem tends to be due to localized issues, since the entire state of Califonia has had significant drop in shelter statistics since 1970.

Statistics are available here:
http://www.doggonecalifornia.org/

I'm concerned about individual health and genetic soundness.

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Go here to get reader friendly information on how to contact the Assembly on this bill. Faxes appear the be the best way to ensure that your position on the bill is counted.

Here is a direct link to the bill information itself.

Related, but not in California, I have been reading that the implementation of MSN in Albuquerque is proving to be a disaster.

MSN does NOT work:
http://network.bestfriends.org/anima...news/4108.html

[Giselle]

I don't know about the rest of California, but there are numerous low-cost spay/neuter programs in my area. In most cases, pitties are even altered for free. However, it's true that exposure is very low and I doubt many people even know that low-cost s/n programs exist.

*sighs* I don't think any law will do any good now. At this point, rigorous education seems to be our only option.