Cesar Millan

[wolfsoul]

Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode.

[elizabethann]

Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode.

agh nuts....I missed that one. I'll have to catch a repeat of it someday.

[lizbud]

I fail to see any" punishment" used in Cesar's dog interaction.His method
is as simple as it sounds & confounds some critics because it doesn't take
a lot of thought to communicate successfully with dogs.

[agilityk9trainer]

I fail to see any" punishment" used in Cesar's dog interaction.His method
is as simple as it sounds & confounds some critics because it doesn't take
a lot of thought to communicate successfully with dogs.

I don't think you know what "punishment" is when refering to Operant Conditioning (ie. how dogs - and people for that matter - learn). Here's a quick lesson.

In scholarly circles, they use the term "positive punishment" to refer to added punishment (not good punishment). Punishment is anything negative. It can range from a quite, softly spoken "no" to a "tssk" (which I believe Cesar uses in abundance) to a collar pop to a nose slap to an Alpha Roll to beating your dog with a brick. It's anything negative. People often don't realize they are using "punishment" because they don't consider what they are doing to be very harsh at all, but if it's designed to point out a bad behavior or correct a bad behavior, chances are it's a punishment. Some of the punishments I've heard Cesar uses are collar pops, verbal punishments, "flooding" (which I consider a punishment) and sticking his finger down a dog's throat. None of these are necessary to train a dog to listen and obey.

In Operant Conditioning, dogs learn by rewards and punishment, just like people. For instance, if a dog gets into the trash can, they get rewarded with great smells and possibly some tasty rotting food. Instant reward. The dog WILL repeat this behavior. He has learned that trash can = good smells = repeated behavior. However, if you make the trash can scary by placing a Snappy Trainer in it (a "Positive Punishment" here also called a remoter punisher), then the dog goes to the trash can. The Snappy Trainer goes off. Now, trash can = scary snappy things = stay away from trash can.

Yes, positive punishment works. However, what's more powerful is the positive approach (minus the punishment). By using rewards and play and fun, dogs don't work out of fear. They work out of joy. Those of you who have never trained all positive are really missing the boat. Believe me. The benefits are so strong in the bond you get with a dog trained using positive reinforcement. It's heads and tails abouve the other methods, which again, I have used. They are old school and outdated.

This evening on the CBS Evening News, they had a piece on the AKC Agility National Championships. The reporter (Steve Hartman, I believe) commented that after every run he saw, regardless of how many mistakes were made on course, the handlers came out praising and loving on their dogs. Why? How could this work? Remember, these are the cream of the crop of agility handlers and dogs nationwide. So, why do these successful handlers praise their dogs even when there were mistakes on the course? Shouldn't they be adding punishment, like Cesar would?

The answer is simple. If punosihing worked, you'd see handlers doing it. But it doesn't work. The dogs have to love what they're doing to do agility at that high of a level. They have to have tremendous speed and joy. If the handlers were punishing their dogs for mistakes on the course, what would the dogs eventually do? Why, run slower or shut down completely! The speed - the incredible joy - would be gone. There would be no top agility dogs in that nation...only slowly running dogs who were afraid to mess up because of reprisal. We don't want that. We want enthusiastic dogs who can't wait to get on the course and run like maniacs! We get what we want out of our dogs by rewarding the good behavior and ignoring the bad. Soon, the dog is only giving us good behaviors on the course, AND we still have maniac speed dogs out there.

Agiity is changing how we look at dog training. We are seeing a whole other world. Dogs can be trained - and extremely and highly trained (yes, the listen AND love it) - without much punishment at all. They can learn to love work - to live for it - to experience pure joy when working - and yet work perfectly and accurately with their handler.

It's a whole other way of thinking. Cesar is still back in the old days of punish to get results. We've moved so far beyond this. Yes, a little "positive punishment" is still acceptable. I certainly use the word "no" on occasion (although never with a green dog on the agility field). However, the old methods of collar pops, training collars, etc. are just that. Old methods. Very few dogs need this if trained properly in positive methods.

The positive way is a very powerful tool and still far too few people are aware of the power within their reach if they would but change their old school mindsets when it comes to training. Believe me. I used to be one.

[Vela]

You may be great at what you do, but you are NOT training dogs who would be labeled killers, dogs who have attacked people and other dogs.....an agility dog is something else entirely. You are comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. What Cesar does is completely different than what you are describing and for the dogs he is working with, and the people he is working with, it works! It's not the same thing at all as to what you describe so no matter what YOU do as a trainer with agility dogs, means nothing to the dogs he deals with. He doesn't hurt them, he puts them in their place in the pack order. I don't agree with everything he does, but what he does has a place and is needed. He deals with dogs with people problems, and people with dog problems, and helps them learn to coexist for the betterment of both. I don't see that as wrong.

He doesn't claim to be a "trainer", he helps people and their dogs learn how to communicate on a level both can understand so there is harmony in the home for both. He doesn't try to train agility dogs, or personal protection dogs, or dogs for the blind, he tries to fix problems that already EXIST between people and their dogs.

His pack of dogs do not act like they fear him one bit. They are happy to see him and are happy to do as he asks. They don't have the tail/head down posturing of fearful dogs. They do not run from him or cower before him. So I don't really know why you say he instills fear in them.

[dukedogsmom]

You are right, Vela. He's always saying "I train people and rehabilitate dogs" I think he's amazing and haven't seen any abuse at all.

[*LabLoverKEB*]

I personally love his show, and I think he is great with the dogs.