Cesar Millan

[lute]

I honestly don't have a problem with Cesar Milan and his training. I think he does well at what he does. I don't look to him for guidence on traing although some people might.

[agilityk9trainer]

I think Dr,. Goodnow and Giselle have stated things very well. Cesar uses force training techniques. In other words, he adds punishment to his training. I, personally, use very little punishment in my training. My dogs work for me not out of fear, but out of a desire to please me and have fun. My training is a blast for my dogs. Just tonight, I was on the sofa watching TV, and I said something about "work." My sheltie about came out of his skin in excitement thinking we were going to go in the backyard to "work" (ie train). They live for it. They love it. Dogs trained with punishment do it to avoid punishment, not out of joy. My dogs do it for fun and love.

Cesar has pushed training back 20 years because we USED to use those methods (myself included). Those of us from those days see what Cesar is doing and know the results. Sure, they work. We used to use them. No, the end result isn't better because the dogs aren't working in joy. They're working in fear.

It is basically the old methods wrapped up and glitzed up for a new century. I'm very saddened he has gotten popular. It's made my job as a profesional trainer much more difficult!!

[wolfsoul]

I think some of his methods are good, some are debateable, and alot depend on the dog. I use both positive and negative reinforcement. I don't force dogs, I teach them. And when they are taught and choose not to listen, THEN I force them. In other words, my dogs learned in a positive manner, but know that if they don't listen they are going to be in trouble. Positive training is good because the dogs learn to enjoy their training. Negative reinforcement is good because you will get a dog that listens. Neither one is wrong. I want both adog that enjoys training and a dog that listens well, so I use both. Belgians vary from one end of the scale in temperament to another, and my dogs tend to be harder tempered and very high drive. I don't screw around with positive training if I know it's not going to work.

[anna_66]

I think some of his methods are good, some are debateable, and alot depend on the dog.

Jordan I couldn't agree more. I've tried some of his methods on my dogs, some work and some don't. What works on the girls doesn't always work on Bon, what works on Bon doesn't always work with the girls. It all depends on the dog.

I personally like Cesar and think he has a gift with dogs. But of course that's just my opinion.

[mike001]

I read his book, found it entertaining but wasn't impressed. He seemed to be on an ego trip. then when I read what he did with the threadmill thing I was totally turned off. I think he's mostly out for power over dogs, some of his methods I find border on cruelty. I personnally don't like his methods or him.

[wolfsoul]

Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode.

[elizabethann]

Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode.

agh nuts....I missed that one. I'll have to catch a repeat of it someday.

[agilityk9trainer]

I want both adog that enjoys training and a dog that listens well, so I use both.

See, I get that using positive methods. Both a dog that enjoys training AND listens. We wouldn't have made it to the AKC Agility Nats if my dog didn't listen!

I think most people jump the gun and go for the pinch collars, choke chains, collar pops, ear pinches, nose slaps, etc. BEFORE giving all=positive methods a chance. They will work in high drive, over the top dogs. My dogs are very dominant, VERY high drive, VERY tough. Yet, I have taught them using all positive methods. And, the result is a dog who has pure joy in his job, isn't afraid of reprisal and runs like the wind.

I do find that between one to five percent of dogs (or rather their handlers) need to go to the more adversive methods I just mentioned. I personally find it much more difficult on the trainer to be all positive. Because of this, some people can't do it. They don't have the skills necessary. It takes great understanding of the dog, great timing and an excellent ability to read dog body language to be proficient at all positive. It's must much easier to collar pop a dog for bad behavior than learn how to shape and mold good behavior.

With any dog I train, I always start all positive and add in mild adversives (a soft spoken "no" or a "eck" for example) as the individual dog requires. Starting right off the bat with a training collar or other adversive is over-kill, and again, destroys that magical bond that all positive training creates.

I, too, have used a mix of positive and force training (punishment - not to be confused with reinforcement as punishment is not reinforcement). However, I still never reached the level of bond I was searching for until I dispensed with the heavy corrections.

[wolfsoul]

I have to agree with Vela here. I train for agility, but I never let the fact escape that my dogs are high drive Belgians. They are dangerous dogs, simple as that. When Visa went to her first seminar (shortly after I got her) the host said she needed to be taken out of agility RIGHT away -- She was too dangerous. This was after two years of only positive training. I got her, saw a dog that wasn't eager to please, was not particularily motived, self-rewarded herself by not listening, and plain just didn't enjoy her training. She had very uncontrollable drive and a mild working sharpness which did make her a potential danger. I used alot of negatives, and it worked for her. Instead of not listening altogether, she stops listening only when she becomes bored of it, and then the training ends. She is now a controlled dog -- My service dog at that -- I got rid of the working sharpness and she is now reliable. And now that she knows what to do, she enjoys her training. But I will never be able to resort to ONLY positive -- every time I try, she starts to take advantage of me. She is a smart dog and she knows what she wants.

Having malinois in fur coats (lol), I honestly couldn't care less if my dog enjoyed what it was doing in the long term -- if it is a required command, they will do it, like it or not. I live under the idea that these dogs are dangerous and it is my job to control them. I am glad my dogs understand that there are consequences to their actions. I honestly can't think of any "positive" ways to control sharpness in a working dog.

My co-breeder is the same -- both positive and negative. She grew up with the Kohler method of training. Her dogs didn't have fun all the time, but they listened 100%. When she was a teenager she went to a positive training class. Her dog enjoyed it, but at the end of 8 weeks it jumped up and stole a chocolate bar from her hand. It would NEVER have even thought of doing that before the class. She liked the reliability of the harsher training and the dog's eagerness towards positive training. So she developed both a postitive and negative attitude.

[DrKym]

What I will say is this I have never needed to use a prong or a choke in over 15 years with "dangerous dogs" Rotts or Dobes or my daughters pitties. They respond so much differently than my early dogs did. I would never go back to that type of training. My dogs do what is asked of them at every opportunity because they want to, and honestly they make less errors then when I did use "corrective" techniques.

[wolfsoul]

You are seeing him deal with VERY problematic dogs, dogs on the verge of being put down often, because of their behavior problems, not based on any one breed, but on the dog's behavior. Breed has nothing to do with it, there are problems in all breeds of dogs with all types of people. He is not working with the "average dog" of whatever breed.

I am not basing it on Belgians -- I am basing it on Belgians with working sharpness. Belgians with working sharpness ARE put to sleep daily. If my dog ever shows any tendency to bite, I don't care if I have to use negative tactics to remove it. My dog was sharp her first two years I did not have her when she was only postitvely trained. An agility trainer told my cobreeder to put her down. Anyone here who has met Visa can attest to her very nice temperament. She is still drivey but she is no longer sharp. She is controlled. Solo I nipped right in the bud. And yes, I used negative training. But when it comes to biting, I really don't care.

[agilityk9trainer]

Having malinois in fur coats (lol), I honestly couldn't care less if my dog enjoyed what it was doing in the long term -- if it is a required command, they will do it, like it or not. I. I honestly can't think of any "positive" ways to control sharpness in a working dog.

How sad. I want my dogs to enjoy life, enjoy working and enjoy me. Yes, they do things they don't want to because I ask it. But they do it out of respect for me, not fear of me. There is a big difference.

Dr. Goodnow, I agree completely. My dogs make much fewer errors, too.

Also, I know several very aggressive agility dogs who are doing great having been rehabilitated using the all-positive methods. Must work, or they wouldn't be able to be off lead in such a stimulating atmosphere.

I've tasted force training. I've tasted force training mixed with positive training. I've tasted positive training. I won't go back.

Vela, the biggest problem with Cesar is just what you mentioned. He's working with aggressive dogs, and yet televises his methods. Then, Joe sitting at home thinks, "Hmmm. I'll collar pop my dog, too!" I've had person after person come up to me and say they were doing something Cesar did to their housepets with minor behavioral problems that could be easily fixed without going to such extreme measures. Frankly, he has no business having a national audience showing those methods to people who don't understand when the extremely rare case might be when they are acceptable to use.

I like that he doesn't claim to be a trainer, and yet uses the very same methods trainers used 20 eyars ago. I find that rather humerous!

As for instilling fear, I'm afraid you don't understand what I've been saying. I can tell by others' posts that they don't understand either. Dogs obey out of fear. They don't necessairly show the fear. But, they don't obey out of excitement, love and the pure joy. And, they don't obey out of respect...just fear of reprisal. Again, big difference.

I find it interesting that no one here who has ever trained a dog using mostly positive methods is coming on saying, "Oh, but Cesar IS right!" All of us who HAVE been there, done that are telling you guys who have never used both methods that the mostly positive route IS the best route. I strongly doubt Cesar has ever trained a dog using all positive methods either.

Unfortunately for the dogs in America, many people are again turning back to those old ways, thanks to Cesar, and the dogs are suffering because of it.

[wolfsoul]

How sad. I want my dogs to enjoy life, enjoy working and enjoy me. Yes, they do things they don't want to because I ask it. But they do it out of respect for me, not fear of me. There is a big difference.
All of us who HAVE been there, done that are telling you guys who have never used both methods that the mostly positive route IS the best route.

I also want my dog to do this -- but she never did when taught with only positive training. While they generally used both positive and negative, she was a messed up dog and they used only positive. Eventually they became frustrated and stopped training her because she wasn't having fun. She does enjoy her training now. There is no reason a dog trained either way can not enjoy their training. It all depends on the dog. Frankly I would rather my dog NOT enjoy training, than to skip out on using negative training for a legitimate reason because there is a slight chance, when nothing else has worked, that it could work.
I HAVE done both, I have been there and done that. I DO use mostly positive. But when it comes to matters such sharpness, I refuse. Just personal preference. I don't think many people here have dealt with it before and frankly I hope they never have to. It is tough to get rid of once it's there and I imagine impossible if you don't want to correct your dog.

[DrKym]

I think Dr,. Goodnow and Giselle have stated things very well. Cesar uses force training techniques. In other words, he adds punishment to his training. I, personally, use very little punishment in my training. My dogs work for me not out of fear, but out of a desire to please me and have fun. My training is a blast for my dogs. Just tonight, I was on the sofa watching TV, and I said something about "work." My sheltie about came out of his skin in excitement thinking we were going to go in the backyard to "work" (ie train). They live for it. They love it. Dogs trained with punishment do it to avoid punishment, not out of joy. My dogs do it for fun and love.

Cesar has pushed training back 20 years because we USED to use those methods (myself included). Those of us from those days see what Cesar is doing and know the results. Sure, they work. We used to use them. No, the end result isn't better because the dogs aren't working in joy. They're working in fear.

It is basically the old methods wrapped up and glitzed up for a new century. I'm very saddened he has gotten popular. It's made my job as a profesional trainer much more difficult!!

for those of us that are old...i.e. me
it(the years of outdatedness) has been pushed back farther, my guys are here as a last resort before PTS happens. I have a 89% sucess rate , not bad considering all the variables. Cesar is a personable and PC correct act to follow. In the short term.
My dogs work because they love to do it, there is a difference. A dog that obeys and a dog that works are 2 very different beings. Mine will do both, I am saddened to see the ones that obey, since that is fear and will never allow them to reach their full potential. It isn't hard to break a spirit, what is difficult, is to help them find it again.

just my opinion.

[BC_MoM]

His work is amazing, but I don't agree with him on some things. He's on this whole dominance trip thing.