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**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Puckstop31

Look, I read two articles about this. I skipped over the biased stuff and looked at the facts. After thinking about it and realizing the equipment she had on her at the time she committed the crime....

She knew exactly what she was doing/going to do. In my opinion, she was going to murder that person. Hence what she ended up doing was pre-meditated ATTEMPTED First Degree Murder.

Fine, give her therapy after she is in jail. Will we ever stop making excuses for bad behavior in our society?

The facts ???? Ohhhh......you mean what you read. What the media reported...yes ??? Come on now Puck.....you should know better than that.
For your information.....the reason why she has been charged with premeditated first degree murder (but not convicted mind you...just charged) was due to the fact that the public prosecutor did not like what the judge originally doled out to her.....nope....not enough to give her a bail and anklet condition. So they trumped up another charge so that she would be locked up...based on circumstantial evidence mind you.
It isn't my place, or yours, or anyone else's on this board to condemn anyone on circumstantial evidence. I don't care if the lady had a cannon on her...it doesn't send the message to me that she was going to use it.
You know what is going to happen to her ???? I'll tell you........all these silly little bunch of charges that the prosecutors have painstakingly gone through their law manuals to gather will all be quashed. Yep....she will get assault for the pepper spray....thats it.
And in my opinion.........that is all she deserves.
I feel very sorry for this lady, she hasn't committed any crime other than petty assault.....probably no more than any of us here on this board have done in their lives. I've punched a guy out for stealing my girlfriend in my younger days, and I haven't been nailed to a cross for that.
It's a little thing called BREAKDOWN old mate....I'm pretty sure that most people here know what I am talking about.
Wombat

**sparks19** · 03-18-2007, 12:24 PM

Ok Wombat... what to you consititutes premeditated attempted murder or kidnapping for that matter? What kind of proof do you need to suggest that it was premeditated attempted murder?

Actually I can't say I have EVER just punched someone out or assaulted someone. I have NEVER started a fight in my life. I may have finished a few but I NEVER threw the first punch. lol. I'm just not of the frame of mind that anyone that just wants to start a fight with me is worth breaking a bone or getting a record over. I will always talk first... sometimes that works and gives the person enough time to think this might not be a good idea. other times I talk and wait for them to throw the first punch.... my punch after that becomes self defense

Driving 900 miles to assault someone, TO ME, is not just petty assault..... that shows A LOT of premeditation. The woman in that car feared for her life and even though she couldn't really see she managed to get her car into gear and get some help. AGAIN, I am willing to concede the attempted murder thing.... but petty assault? not so much IMO.

If I drove 900 miles.... put on a disguise and stalked someone.... followed them to their car and then assaulted them.... I would not get a petty assault charge lol

P.S- YOu shouldn't have been angry at that guy for "stealing" your g/f.... you should have been angry at your g/f for being too cowardly to tell you she was leaving. No one truly "steals" a b/f or g/f from you.... it is just that the b/f or g/f was a coward and didn't want to tell you right away that they wanted out.

**Edwina's Secretary** · 03-18-2007, 01:19 PM

How interesting.....

The same people who have accused the media of incompetence, inaccuracy and even blatant distortion...are now determined of the guilt of someone based on a reading/listening of the same media.

And one who reminded us, when accusations were made of service personnel in Iraq....the presumption of innocence....now has this person on the rocks!

I say, let a jury of her peers make a decision based on the evidence presented in a court of law.

And I have found the media in this case more interested in her sanitation methods than anything else.

**sparks19** · 03-18-2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary

How interesting.....

The same people who have accused the media of incompetence, inaccuracy and even blatant distortion...are now determined of the guilt of someone based on a reading/listening of the same media.

And one who reminded us, when accusations were made of service personnel in Iraq....the presumption of innocence....now has this person on the rocks!

I say, let a jury of her peers make a decision based on the evidence presented in a court of law.

And I have found the media in this case more interested in her sanitation methods than anything else.

One day your eyes are gonna get stuck like that

**Lady's Human** · 03-18-2007, 02:12 PM

ES,

There's a difference between the Marines who were charged for what happened at Haditha and what has happened with Cpt. Nowak.

CPT Nowak was apprehended immediately after assaulting someone in a parking lot. There are no major differences in the reports of what happened, and the majority of information in the stories about it came from a press conference with the sheriff's department.

The Haditha incident, however, was reported and investigated months after it happened, and was based on information from people who have no reason to give positive information about US forces actions in Iraq. The Press and some in Congress were pushing for indictments before the official investigation (which was ongoing at the time the story broke) was completed, as in before the facts of the case were known. While the subsequent investigation has shown that indeed there were murders committed, the pressure from the press and Congress almost guaranteed a conviction before the evidence had even been reviewed. Those Marines would have likely been convicted of SOMETHING regardless of the facts in the case. If they had been acquitted of all charges, even if the investigation had shown they did nothing wrong, there would have been hell to pay.

Comparing what CPT Nowak did with the Haditha murders is comparing apples to oranges, especially when you consider the convoluted nature of the military justice system.

**Edwina's Secretary** · 03-18-2007, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

ES,

There's a difference between the Marines who were charged for what happened at Haditha and what has happened with Cpt. Nowak.

CPT Nowak was apprehended immediately after assaulting someone in a parking lot. There are no major differences in the reports of what happened, and the majority of information in the stories about it came from a press conference with the sheriff's department.

The Haditha incident, however, was reported and investigated months after it happened, and was based on information from people who have no reason to give positive information about US forces actions in Iraq. The Press and some in Congress were pushing for indictments before the official investigation (which was ongoing at the time the story broke) was completed, as in before the facts of the case were known. While the subsequent investigation has shown that indeed there were murders committed, the pressure from the press and Congress almost guaranteed a conviction before the evidence had even been reviewed. Those Marines would have likely been convicted of SOMETHING regardless of the facts in the case. If they had been acquitted of all charges, even if the investigation had shown they did nothing wrong, there would have been hell to pay.

Comparing what CPT Nowak did with the Haditha murders is comparing apples to oranges, especially when you consider the convoluted nature of the military justice system.

So....in her case...no presumption of innocence? I thought everybody gets that...apples and oranges?

**Lady's Human** · 03-18-2007, 09:33 PM

Presumption of innocence takes on a slightly different meaning when one is arrested immediately after the fact.

**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by sparks19

One day your eyes are gonna get stuck like that

Hehehehe.....maybe it's one of those twitch things some people get. LOLOL
Wom

**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by sparks19

Ok Wombat... what to you consititutes premeditated attempted murder or kidnapping for that matter? What kind of proof do you need to suggest that it was premeditated attempted murder?

Actually I can't say I have EVER just punched someone out or assaulted someone. I have NEVER started a fight in my life. I may have finished a few but I NEVER threw the first punch. lol. I'm just not of the frame of mind that anyone that just wants to start a fight with me is worth breaking a bone or getting a record over. I will always talk first... sometimes that works and gives the person enough time to think this might not be a good idea. other times I talk and wait for them to throw the first punch.... my punch after that becomes self defense

Driving 900 miles to assault someone, TO ME, is not just petty assault..... that shows A LOT of premeditation. The woman in that car feared for her life and even though she couldn't really see she managed to get her car into gear and get some help. AGAIN, I am willing to concede the attempted murder thing.... but petty assault? not so much IMO.

If I drove 900 miles.... put on a disguise and stalked someone.... followed them to their car and then assaulted them.... I would not get a petty assault charge lol

P.S- YOu shouldn't have been angry at that guy for "stealing" your g/f.... you should have been angry at your g/f for being too cowardly to tell you she was leaving. No one truly "steals" a b/f or g/f from you.... it is just that the b/f or g/f was a coward and didn't want to tell you right away that they wanted out.

Murder ??? Oh my God Sparky. She probably just wanted to confront her adversery.
Now about this 900 mile thing, the real point here is..."Would a rational person in this situation do what she did ???" I think not. This woman has had a breakdown, and a very serious one at that, and that has caused her to become irrational.
It's interesting.....I phoned my daughter last night, and discussed this particular case with her. For the record, my daughter is a forensic psychologist, and she sorts out people like this on a daily basis. According to my daughter, we have these little chemicals in our brain that sometimes go out of whack, it's called a chemical inbalance. I'm sure I won't have to give you a lecture about the causes of that or it's consequences....you know what I'm talking about. But the true crux of the matter is that it happens more markedly, and it's affects are more obvious, in those people who are under a great deal of stress and anxiety. Now this lady has been through a marriage breakup...yes ??? And I'm sure this lady has not achieved what she has in life by being plain old lazy, or being stupid. Her particular career would have it's fair share of stress.... the load on her must be very great. I believe that this woman has already shown the world what kind of responsible and intelligent person she is.
Her actions, are completely out of character with who she really is.
This is what happens when emotion overides logic.
Wombat

**sparks19** · 03-18-2007, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Murder ??? Oh my God Sparky. She probably just wanted to confront her adversery.
Now about this 900 mile thing, the real point here is..."Would a rational person in this situation do what she did ???" I think not. This woman has had a breakdown, and a very serious one at that, and that has caused her to become irrational.
It's interesting.....I phoned my daughter last night, and discussed this particular case with her. For the record, my daughter is a forensic psychologist, and she sorts out people like this on a daily basis. According to my daughter, we have these little chemicals in our brain that sometimes go out of whack, it's called a chemical inbalance. I'm sure I won't have to give you a lecture about the causes of that or it's consequences....you know what I'm talking about. But the true crux of the matter is that it happens more markedly, and it's affects are more obvious, in those people who are under a great deal of stress and anxiety. Now this lady has been through a marriage breakup...yes ??? And I'm sure this lady has not achieved what she has in life by being plain old lazy, or being stupid. Her particular career would have it's fair share of stress.... the load on her must be very great. I believe that this woman has already shown the world what kind of responsible and intelligent person she is.
Her actions, are completely out of character with who she really is.
This is what happens when emotion overides logic.
Wombat

Well I didn't read anywhere that her marriage was ending but if it was... it might have something to do with her fooling around with other men.... maybe??!!

Lots of people are under stress and anxiety... it does not excuse that type of behaviour. and JUST for the record... no one accused her of being stupid... many people that hatch these kinds of plans are very very smart. hey serial killers are often geniuses. now I am not comparing her to a serial killer but it does not take a stupid person to commit a crime or to have a pre meditated plan. But I am just not willing to say... well she was under a lot of stress so lets just allow her to stalk and assault women. Emotion can be a powerful thing.... but everyone else seems to be able to keep theirs in check without hurting people. Those who cannot control their emotions need to face the consequences. So they just chalk it up to emotions and "imbalance" so what happens the next time she has a dillusion and her emotions and stress take her over? Should we just say "ohhh poor baby... have a lollipop" I don't think so.

**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by sparks19

Well I didn't read anywhere that her marriage was ending but if it was... it might have something to do with her fooling around with other men.... maybe??!!

Lots of people are under stress and anxiety... it does not excuse that type of behaviour. and JUST for the record... no one accused her of being stupid... many people that hatch these kinds of plans are very very smart. hey serial killers are often geniuses. now I am not comparing her to a serial killer but it does not take a stupid person to commit a crime or to have a pre meditated plan. But I am just not willing to say... well she was under a lot of stress so lets just allow her to stalk and assault women. Emotion can be a powerful thing.... but everyone else seems to be able to keep theirs in check without hurting people. Those who cannot control their emotions need to face the consequences. So they just chalk it up to emotions and "imbalance" so what happens the next time she has a dillusion and her emotions and stress take her over? Should we just say "ohhh poor baby... have a lollipop" I don't think so.

But Sparksy....I'm not excusing her behaviour. I believe she deserves whatever the law throws at her for her crime.
Edwinas Secretary hit the nail on the head a couple of posts ago, by stating that she is to be tried by a court of law....I couldn't agree more !!!!
But what I DON'T agree with, is all this hype about murder....premediated or whatever. These charges have been cooked up by public prosecutors, because that is what public prosecutors do !!!!! And to have someone on the stand who has some sort of standing in the community is nothing else but an added opportunity to them to show the world that they can do their job. They have made an absolute spectacle out of this lady. They are accusing her of all kinds of goodies, as I have stated previously, out of all kinds of so called circumstantial evidence. This has all been blown up way out of proportion.
"" Hey look people....we have a new witch this week....she has been caught with a few herbs in her hip pocket....lets burn her !!!"" "" On second thoughts, she's the governors wife, lets make a spectacle of her first, and then burn her. ""
Geez.......give the poor girl a break....she's been thru enough....she hasn't done even near what she has been accused of.
Wombat

**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 07:24 PM

"""ohhh poor baby... have a lollipop" I don't think so."""
Perhaps a few coloured beads ??? LOL
Wom

**lizbud** · 03-18-2007, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

The facts ???? Ohhhh......you mean what you read. What the media reported...yes ??? Come on now Puck.....you should know better than that.
For your information.....the reason why she has been charged with premeditated first degree murder (but not convicted mind you...just charged) was due to the fact that the public prosecutor did not like what the judge originally doled out to her.....nope....not enough to give her a bail and anklet condition. So they trumped up another charge so that she would be locked up...based on circumstantial evidence mind you.
It isn't my place, or yours, or anyone else's on this board to condemn anyone on circumstantial evidence. I don't care if the lady had a cannon on her...it doesn't send the message to me that she was going to use it.
You know what is going to happen to her ???? I'll tell you........all these silly little bunch of charges that the prosecutors have painstakingly gone through their law manuals to gather will all be quashed. Yep....she will get assault for the pepper spray....thats it.
And in my opinion.........that is all she deserves.
I feel very sorry for this lady, she hasn't committed any crime other than petty assault.....probably no more than any of us here on this board have done in their lives. I've punched a guy out for stealing my girlfriend in my younger days, and I haven't been nailed to a cross for that.
It's a little thing called BREAKDOWN old mate....I'm pretty sure that most people here know what I am talking about.
Wombat

Wombat, I don't think this kid has lived long enough to realise how
adults think. To live a life and never need forgiveness. How extraordinary.

**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by lizbud

Wombat, I don't think this kid has lived long enough to realise how
adults think. To live a life and never need forgiveness. How extraordinary.

I know Lizbud.....but we have to teach teach teach...LOL
Wom

**wombat2u2004** · 03-18-2007, 06:57 PM

Sparks19 wrote ""Ok Wombat... what to you consititutes premeditated attempted murder or kidnapping for that matter? What kind of proof do you need to suggest that it was premeditated attempted murder?"

I cite the following extract from the casenotes.
People v Moore (Court of Appeal of the State of California. Case No.C036773)
"To constitute willful, deliberate, and premeditated attempted murder, the would-be slayer must weigh and consider the question of killing and the reasons for and against such a choice and, having in mind the consequences, decides to kill and makes a direct but ineffectual act to kill another human being"

Wombat