Originally Posted by
whalelover
I guess you could technically still think you're in control, but in a dog's mind, if it's the one in front, they think that they're leading, cause they are. Even if you pull to go somewhere else, if it turns and goes in front of you again, same problem.
The methods you use seem to be dog training. Cesar's methods are dog psychology. Dog training is essentially applying human psychology on a dog (positive reinforcement) in order to get it to do what you want (tricks). Dog psychology is just that. His methods aren't outdated, they're just different than dog training, as he ISN'T and never claims to be a dog trainer. If using dog psychology on a dog is outdated and using human psychology on a dog is the new "better way to do things", something doesn't seem right with that picture.
Dog training sessions generally are meant to be full of fun and excitement. It's meant to get the dog into a hyper state so that they will be more willing to do what you ask. Lots of people think that their dog is much happier doing this, but lots of times the truth is, he is just excited. And sure, feeding it treats all the time will of course get you a better bond with your dog. You're bribing it.
If I wanted a dog that was an agility champion, of course I would use your training methods. I'm talking about fixing a dog's problems that are psychological.
Yes, I have whistle trained, which is the same as clicker training pretty much. It may work to get dogs to do different behaviors/tricks, but it doesn't work as far as fulfilling a dog's needs go. I have never seen Cesar be overly harsh on a dog. "Physical correction in dog training language can range anywhere between a quick jerk on a training collar to an alpha dog roll.
Beating the sh*t out of a dog is NOT any part of physical correction, nor is it ever recommended."
Until I see a dog trainer have an entire pack of formerly red zone agressive pit bulls all living together 24/7 in one pack, I'm sticking with Cesar.
Wow. I'm sorry you so misunderstand dog training vs. dog psychology. I guess you've bought hook, line and sinker into Cesar's old methods. Trust me, they're old dog TRAINING...not dog psychology. It's what I used 30 years ago. The whole thing about the new training is that it IS based on psychology. Treat training is based on Operant Conditioning....it's based on how the dog's brain works to learn. This is a scientific leraning methods. Everyone who owns a dog should understand the difference between operant conditioning, classical conditioning and soclal learning. it's not based on being so overly controling and using harsh methods to get your dog to work for you out of fear. That's what punishment based methods like Cesar's use. Positve base methods use dog psychology... they use the now well-known understanding of how the dog's brain works.
If ind it interesting that Cesar, who doesn't have a university degree in animal studies, is so highly thought of when the folks who actually have SCIENTIFICALLY studied dogs using known scientific methods (including control groups, etc.) have found that the positive based training works better. That's why animal behaviorist....they're the "trainers" with the Masters degrees....don't like Cesar. It's why Tufts, one of the top vet universities in the nation, said Cesar has put dog training back 20 years. The reason is he's using 20 year old material and rehyping it. And, you've bought it. You believe it to be psychology. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's old fashioned dog TRAINING packaged to sell to those without complete understanding of the canine.
Dogs who are in front of someone when walking aren't in control. If they were, then why when I make the slightest movement in a different direction do my dogs move? Why do I hold my leash by my pinkie when walking? If my dog was in control, why does it obey my every command. Remember. I've got a highly trained agility dog. This isn't just some house dog. This dog has to obey even the slightest movement from me at a split second notice to get around an agility field. And, BTW, my dog is very fast and ALWAYS in front of me in agility. Yet, somehow, inspite of not being "in control" as you put it, we've managed to get a Championship. And, my students are the same. Amazingly enough, even though their dogs walk in front of them, they manage to have well-behaved dogs in the house and in the ring.
I think you need to spend some time at an agility trial. We don't WANT our dogs at our side. You won't see ANY dogs walking in heel position. Yet, you also won't see any dogs who are in control. What you will see are owners who have total and complete control at all times over dogs who are excited and happy.
I'm afraid you have limited experience here. It's sad what Cesar is doing to the dog-loving public. He really is putting dog training back 20 years. Pleease go find an agility trial near you and watch the dogs work. They are out front, but believe me, they are NOT in control. In fact, I find it rather offensive that you would indicate such based on no scientific research at all.
MACH Aslan RE, MX, MXJ, EAC, EJC, OCC, Wv-N, TN-N, TG-N, R-SN, J-SN, R2-CL, CGC, TDI, FFX-AG (five year old sheltie)
Jericho OA, NAJ, R1-MCL, CGC, FFX-AP (three year old sheltie)
Laika NAJ, CGC (nine year old retired American Eskimo)
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