Disabled person in Wal-Mart thrown out!

[DrKym]

That comment was in reference to your blanket statement about federal law trumping state, county and local laws. In this case it may, but in many cases it doesn't.

I am sorry if it came off as a blanket statement LH, it was intended for reference to this thread only. I never meant it to be taken in reference to any other laws , as I said I am not knowledgable enough to speak on the Federal laws regarding USSC or police work or even health or welfare laws. Just this one. Please accept my apology if it came off as all encompassing comment.

[NicoleLJ]

Just so you all know in the States Service Dogs do not have to wear any identifying ID or equipment, they do not have to be certified and no business can asked to see ID on the Service Dog. A business can only legally ask 3 questions. Is that a Service Dog? Are you Disabled? What Tasks does your service animal perform? Here some links that may help to answer some of your questions:

http://www.acesinfo.org/questions.htm
http://www.deltasociety.org/home.htm
http://www.iaadp.org/index.html

Nicole & Sheena

[mike001]

Those laws might apply to US citizens but what about Canadian citizens?
There was an article published on another forum that the laws that are made for the US have nothing to do with Canadian laws. In Canada from what I understand, people have to get an accreditted dog with certification. The dog's vest has pockets with clear plastic so it isn't hard to slip your I.D. card inside. And what woman goes shopping without a purse...lol...?

[borzoimom]

Those laws might apply to US citizens but what about Canadian citizens?
There was an article published on another forum that the laws that are made for the US have nothing to do with Canadian laws. In Canada from what I understand, people have to get an accreditted dog with certification. The dog's vest has pockets with clear plastic so it isn't hard to slip your I.D. card inside. And what woman goes shopping without a purse...lol...?

They have to wear a tag here too. Also- although a vest is not required for a service dog- most do as it also contains information on the owner as well as required health certificates. Also therapy dogs as well. The vest carries the health certificate as well as their tag with their id avid, therapy dog title etc.
Since I havent trained a service dog in many years, the person had to have a service dog id card on their person. ... I sent out a email to a friend that has trained service dogs for years to see what are the current forms of id in addition to the tags.

[NicoleLJ]

They have to wear a tag here too. Also- although a vest is not required for a service dog- most do as it also contains information on the owner as well as required health certificates. Also therapy dogs as well. The vest carries the health certificate as well as their tag with their id avid, therapy dog title etc.
Since I havent trained a service dog in many years, the person had to have a service dog id card on their person. ... I sent out a email to a friend that has trained service dogs for years to see what are the current forms of id in addition to the tags.

I am sorry Borziomom but you are wrong. Service Dogs in the States do not need tags and do not have to be Certfied.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/animal.htm

"Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?

A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability."

Nicole

[borzoimom]

I am aware of that- I am telling you common practice, more the norm as stated in the above " most but not all.." ..

[NicoleLJ]

I know the norm but I am just showing that it is not a legal requirement and it is agianst the law for a business to require it to allow access.
Nicole

[mike001]

I am aware of that- I am telling you common practice, more the norm as stated in the above " most but not all.." ..

You are right about this borzoid. It is normal practice for dogs to have ID. As for Canada, they are discussing throwing Aces and ADP out the window as they seem to make up their own laws governing service dogs. Canadians do not abide by this. As for service dogs being accepted, if they are certified and have proper ID they are allowed access rights. Not just guide dogs, but assistance dogs for m.s or other similar disabilities, hearing dogs,etc. What is not recognized in Canada is owner trained dogs, Canada does not recognize PSD or PTS dogs as there is really no training facility for this. They are merely thought of as comfort dogs. But if you have proper documentation there is no trouble gaining access anywhere. I know of 2 epilepsy dogs( this was a natural trait), and 4 mobility dogs and I'm sure there are more. I guess each country has their own rules. In Europe any dog is welcomed anywhere, cafes, stores, shopping malls etc. Wish it were so in our part of the world.

[NicoleLJ]

In Canada the laws are behind the times. The individual Provinces are in control of the laws pertaining to Service dogs. The only type of Service Dog that is completely protected and given full access rights within the law in Canada are Guide Dogs for the Blind. We have no one governing body for Service dogs in Canada such as the ADA for The States. But just like the States Service Dogs can be Owner Trained and there is no law in Canada Stating they must be certified or carry ID. So all other Service dogs can be refused entry to any business and have been. It is up to the business weather the Service Dog can enter.

"The Canadian Provinces


The Canadian Provinces independently have their own laws that define the rights of disabled persons. Generally, there have been two approaches. Some provinces have a Blind Persons’ Rights Act. These define, fairly specifically, where the disabled person with a dog may go, important considerations in housing, what happens if these rights are violated, and any penalties associated with them. Trainers rights or requirements, licenses or fees, identification requirements, and injury to the dog may also be included. In this respect, some provinces have statutes that are quite similar to those found in the United States. The provinces that have taken this approach include Alberta, British Columbia, Labrador, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, and Quèbec. While this type of law was originally written to accommodate blind persons, a number of the provinces have broadened their scope through amendments that extend these rights to deaf or hearing impaired and disabled persons.

Another approach is seen in the Human Rights Acts. The Human Rights approach covers a broader issue of discrimination in a much wider section of society. For example, Manitoba includes in its law concern for discrimination in these categories:

(a) ancestry, including colour and perceived race;
(b) nationality or national origin;
(c) ethnic background or origin;
(d) religion or creed, or religious belief, religious association or religious activity;
(e) age;
(f) sex, including pregnancy, the possibility of pregnancy, or circumstances related to pregnancy;
(g) gender-determined characteristics or circumstances other than those included in clause (f);
(h) sexual orientation;
(i) marital or family status;
(j) source of income;
(k) political belief, political association or political activity;
(l) physical or mental disability or related characteristics or circumstances, including reliance on a dog guide or other animal assistant, a wheelchair, or any other remedial appliance or device.

Frequently, in the provinces that rely primarily on this approach, the word “dog” appears only in the definition section of the law. All provinces have a Human Rights Act, but the provinces using this approach to the exclusion of more specific laws for disabled persons, include Manitoba, New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, and Yukon."


So as you can see until Canada has a unified standard like the ADA things will remain up to the provinces to decide. It has taken a long time for mobility assisant dogs to be accepted. Autism support dogs are still not accepted and do not share all teh same rigths as a guide dog. Many of us are trying to change this. Canada needs to continue to expaned in its learnign and accepting of all service dogs. Untill then only Guide dog users have complete and full access and rights across Canada.
Nicole

[TamanduaGirl]

Just so you all know in the States Service Dogs do not have to wear any identifying ID or equipment, they do not have to be certified and no business can asked to see ID on the Service Dog. A business can only legally ask 3 questions. Is that a Service Dog? Are you Disabled? What Tasks does your service animal perform? Here some links that may help to answer some of your questions:

http://www.acesinfo.org/questions.htm
http://www.deltasociety.org/home.htm
http://www.iaadp.org/index.html

Nicole & Sheena

good I'm just reading this now and was going to post that if someone didn't

they only let her finish shopping because she refused to leave. Exceptions are for if the business has to make unreasonable acommedations, a giant breed dog or say full sized horse instead of a mini horse guide laying in the middle of an isle at a restaurant causing people to have to climb over or wait, Some people use large breeds but they are trained to "be small", or not being allowed to take a service dog into a petting zoo where it would scare the animals, behaved dog or not, causing a stampede over the little kids present, if it miss behaves. Claiming you or the customers might be scared or uncomfortable isn't good enough unless you litteraly have a phobia where you turn into a screaming crying ect person at the site of one, then maybe, otherwise anyone could keep all service animals out due to discomfort or the possibility of customers getting upset.

[DrKym]

good I'm just reading this now and was going to post that if someone didn't

they only let her finish shopping because she refused to leave. Exceptions are for if the business has to make unreasonable acommedations, a giant breed dog or say full sized horse instead of a mini horse guide laying in the middle of an isle at a restaurant causing people to have to climb over or wait, Some people use large breeds but they are trained to "be small", or not being allowed to take a service dog into a petting zoo where it would scare the animals, behaved dog or not, causing a stampede over the little kids present, if it miss behaves. Claiming you or the customers might be scared or uncomfortable isn't good enough unless you litteraly have a phobia where you turn into a screaming crying ect person at the site of one, then maybe, otherwise anyone could keep all service animals out due to discomfort or the possibility of customers getting upset.

Almost not quite, you can as another customer claim you are allergic, and also threaten to leave, in that scenario, the animal can also be asked to leave.

Your child may have a fear of dogs, if you had been seated first, and the Service animal is causing or will cause undue stress on another patron you can legally be refused service.

If the animal is in a movie theatre and causes a disturbance, barking ,whining, lying in a darkened aisle that may pose a risk to others , you can also be asked to remove the animal.


So actually yes if the other people are impacted in their experience at the merchants in a negative way then it doesn't matter if they are crying or hysterical, simply that they would be impacted negatively, and that if another patron would be asked to leave and was NOT disabled then it is legal to ask them to go. or to refuse service.

[NicoleLJ]

Almost not quite, you can as another customer claim you are allergic, and also threaten to leave, in that scenario, the animal can also be asked to leave.

Your child may have a fear of dogs, if you had been seated first, and the Service animal is causing or will cause undue stress on another patron you can legally be refused service.

If the animal is in a movie theatre and causes a disturbance, barking ,whining, lying in a darkened aisle that may pose a risk to others , you can also be asked to remove the animal.


So actually yes if the other people are impacted in their experience at the merchants in a negative way then it doesn't matter if they are crying or hysterical, simply that they would be impacted negatively, and that if another patron would be asked to leave and was NOT disabled then it is legal to ask them to go. or to refuse service.

Actually that is not quite true. In the case of allergy or fear then the business would first have to try and accomidate both parties. So say you are shopping in Walmart(fairly large store) and someone has a fear or allergy and complains. The store would first have to try and accomidate both parties. They could do this by asking the people to avoid each other, ask one to shop then the other, see if they can shop in different departments and so on. Now if the dog was causing a distrubance as you said they can be asked to be removed from the premisies. The trick is reasonable accomidation. Here is a link about that:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/svcanimb.htm

"Allergies and fear of animals are generally not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people with service animals."


Thanks for backing up my statements in the other posts. I am fairly new to the Service Dog laws of Canada and the States(only at it about 4 yrs, have had my servcie dog for 3 years now). But I have been lucky to be learning for one of the best ladies around about Service Dogs. Her name is Judi Bayly and she trained the first ever 911 dog and started ACES a non for profit Advacocy Group about Service dogs. Any time I have a question or I am unsure about anything I can go to her. She is a wealth of info and has to keep up with all the laws since she teaches Law enforcment, hospitals and so forth about them. The rare time she doesn't have the answer she then knows how to get it. So I am blessed that way. For anyone involved in Servcie Dogs at all in any way they should keep informed of the laws. Simply because we have to be examples for all Service dog teams.
Nicole

[DrKym]

Nicole ,
you are right in the reasonable accomodation, however bear in mind I was simplifying it for the sake of cutting the earlier threads argument short. Meaning the person doesn't have to be hysterical or crying etc.
Point was if the other patrons are impacted negatively, and if the patron who is impacting would be asked to leave IF they were NOT disabled, then, yes they can be asked to either remove the animal, or to be refused service.

I am thrilled to hear that you are blessed by a Service animal, and wish you both many years of mutal benefit and happiness!

[NicoleLJ]

I completely agree. Sometimes I forget I am talking to people who don't know a lot of the ins and outs of the Service Dog world(not meaning you) and forget to simplify things. LOL. I get set in one midset and forget. lol

Thanks. I am blessed to have her and she has given me a life i never thought I could have.
Nicole