Hilary discussion continued

[borzoimom]

I have deleted the other thread twice( how did it get back up I want to know..) - the purpose was for a chuckle ( front bumper) or affirmation of putting on the back bumper..
Politics and religion probably should not be on here.. I know what I think.. and my opinions as such- I dont trust what comes out of her mouth- and it changes with the wind.. Typical Clinton- blame someone else.. I dont like it..
I like people with a clear path- that get on something and stay with it- I am like that with my dogs even or even house cleaning- ..

[caseysmom]

Your entitled to your opinions and when others state their opinion it is just rude to delete the whole thread if it not in agreement with your opinion.

I have been a member for 3 years and never deleted a thread, imho it is not very nice.

Hopefully the grownup discussion will continue.

[borzoimom]

Your entitled to your opinions and when others state their opinion it is just rude to delete the whole thread if it not in agreement with your opinion.

I have been a member for 3 years and never deleted a thread, imho it is not very nice.

Hopefully the grownup discussion will continue.

I didnt delete it because of a difference of opinion- I deleted it to keep things from getting too heated.
You have to understand = where I live outside the DC area, we are innodated with polictics 24/7.. I have seen them turn really bad.
I have every right to delete any thread to keep things from getting heated.

[caseysmom]

There was not one heated thing in that other thread that I saw. Bob's dad posted a well thought out opinion. There was absolutely nothing heated.

[caseysmom]

BM...if you are so turned off by politics why would you start a thread like that? Just curious it does seem rather odd.

[caseysmom]

Grownup discussion continue....

#31 Yesterday, 08:16 AM
sparks19
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 829

Why do I dislike Hillary?

She is all about taking from the mediocre and giving to the poor as long as you don't take her stuff or her money. Of course I think taking money from anyone to give to anyone is terrible. yes there is a poverty problem but taking money from those who are just barely getting along and have worked VERY hard for their money is not exactly a tip top solution. And you can't punish people for being successful.

As for the war, yes something else needs to be done but she wants to "open up a dialogue" and "reason with these people" UM I would like to see that. She is only going to make it worse than it already is. You can't reason with people that DON'T reason. They are kidnapping our citizens and chopping their heads of on film to show on tv. Yes sounds like they are up for opening a dialogue

She just thinks she is so much smarter than everyone else and I hate that holier than thou attitude. I am not against voting for a democrat if their ideas are the best but she is certainly not in that running.

By the way, she is also for socialized medicine. If done right it can be a great thing.... however, the government never does anything right. Look at Canada. Sure we get "free" health care. In Ontario we pay 15% sales tax as well as federal income taxes on our pay cheques. The government gets our money when we make it and when we spend it. The health care system there is in shambles. Ontario was voted the worst place to be if you have to be treated for Cancer. Treatments are so backed up that people aren't getting the treatment they n eed until it is too late.

My brother had to have total reconstructive knee surgery. He had to wait almost 2 years JUST to get the MRI. then had to wait another year to get the surgery. Hospitals are losing more and more beds each year because they can't pay enough Dr's and nurses. It is not uncommon to wait in an ER at any given time at any given hospital for over 10 hours before you even get a room. once you get a room you must wait more hours before you can even see a student Dr. then you have to wait another hour or so for them to check with their cheif resident.

the healthcare system is in a terrible state and everyone thinks it is perfect because it is "free". The fact is it is NOT free, you pay for it before hand with outrageous taxes. People pay for it with their lives every year because they can't be treated because there aren't enough Dr's, enough space and enough machines.

Hillary thinks this kind of healthcare is the answer..... it is NOT.

There are far better candidates than her.
I want the front bumper sticker
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#32 Yesterday, 09:23 AM
borzoimom
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia US
Posts: 4,253


Socialized medicine here would be as big a mess - if not more so.. Its hard enough to deal with an insurance company, but make our health in government hands- I would have been dead by now..
As it is by insurance I had to have two previous surgeries before the last one- and the last one ended up on an emergency basis- ..
The rest- I will leave alone- I do not like the morality with her, or back tracking either- Senator- fine- -PRESIDENT- nooooooo way!
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#33 Yesterday, 10:45 AM
Edwina's Secretary
and Eddie's too... Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: My heart is in Chicago
Posts: 7,275

Our Healthcare System

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last year I was hospitalized. I entered the hospital on an emergency basis on Thursday afternoon. I left (ama) Saturday morning at 7:30. I had treatments but no sugery. I also had some tests in the emergency room. I spent the rest of the time in a bed hooked up to some ivs. As it was an intestinal infection, I had no food.

My bill....$15,000.

I know that because I asked for a copy of my bill (not that I could understand it.) Normally, I would simply be told my deductible and the bill sent to my insurance carrier.

Yes, I have insurance so I did not pay $15,000.

What does someone do who does NOT have insurance? I can assure you if I had known what it would cost I would have refused admittance.

Right now the federal minimum wage (yes, some states it is higher and congress is considering raising it) is $5.15 per hour. That means my two day hospital stay cost about 1.5 times the annual income of a minimum wage earner. The very people most likely to be uninsured.

That sounds to me like a system that is broken. I don't know what the right solution is to the problem but is cannot go on the way it is. It is not good for the health of America or the health of Americans.
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#34 Yesterday, 10:51 AM
JenBKR
Jenneke Join Date: May 2005
Location: United States - Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
That sounds to me like a system that is broken. I don't know what the right solution is to the problem but is cannot go on the way it is. It is not good for the health of America or the health of Americans.



I completely agree. Our health care system is a mess, and something needs to be done. I don't know what, but I hope our next president can figure something out......
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#35 Yesterday, 11:09 AM
CathyBogart
Reptile Fanatic! Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Campbell, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
That sounds to me like a system that is broken. I don't know what the right solution is to the problem but is cannot go on the way it is. It is not good for the health of America or the health of Americans.



A few months ago my boyfriend was hospitalized for UNDER TWO HOURS and the bill was $8,000. Diagnosis? A scraped knee. We are going to be in debt paying this off for at least two years, over A SCRAPED KNEE.
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#36 Yesterday, 11:11 AM
sparks19
Registered User Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 829

Edwina, just be glad you were able to have your tests in a timely fashion. With socialized medicine they will only give you the ones they deem absolutely nessecary and schedule for the rest at their "earliest available date" which is usually a year down the road.
I do not have health insurance here. I am currently pregnant and will have to see Dr's and give birth eventually. I am paying the bill out of my pocket. But we don't have to pay it all at once. We will pay a certain amount each month. BUT at least my Dr cares.

I was pregnant once before.... a few years ago. My Dr refused for a while to even give me a test until I had missed two periods. I became very ill and she insisted that it was all in my head...... I lost my baby because my Dr didn't care. She wasn't getting paid extra to give me special care so she figured she wouldn't. I finally had to go to a womens clinic and have them schedule me for an ultra sound only to find it was too late. My baby was not growing, I was too ill to continue even trying to carry my baby and I had to have an emergency termination. I am not saying this could have been prevented had my Dr cared enough to do the extra tests but you never know.

Yes health care everywhere is a mess. Anything run by government is a bigger mess. I don't know what the best solution is either but I know it isn't socialized medicine. People can't afford to pay the thousands upon thousands that a hospital stay can cost but many people ALSO can not afford the thousands upon thousands that they lose by the increased income tax AND inflated sales tax that socialized medicine costs.

Edited to add:
If medicine in the US becomes socialized you will also lose MANY Dr's and nurses because they can't make money. They will leave to other places where they can charge for everything again. That's what happened in Ontario. That is why it takes so long to get any care. The dr's couldn't make money so they moved their practice to somewhere that they could. Then we will be in the same predicament if not worse than we are now.
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#37 Yesterday, 12:14 PM
BOBS DAD
Gingers Dad Too!! Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 983


Good Dialogue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sparks,

I am glad to see that this post has migrated to real issues and not the soundbites and generalizations I was seeing initially. I have to respond to you and your comments on Socialized Medicine. I seriously doubt that the Health Care system in Canada is as broken as you describe - as I know many from from the Great White Yonder who describe it quite differently. As with any system, there will be areas and pockets where it is run better and worse than the ideal. Perhaps Ontario is worse than most, but I suspect it is not generally as bad as your experience.

With regards to Hillary - do you know or can you even begin to explain to us the details of her plan??? I suspect not. Not because you are any less informed than the rest of us - but because the information never made it to the arena of public debate. It was shot down and laid to rest by member of Congress who coincidentally "are all insured by a Federal Govermnent Health Plan". I don't see any of them clamoring to get off of their federally funded health care and down here with me and my Blue Cross Blue Shield HMO.


I too was in the hospital going on about 3 years ago. I went in for routine same day bladder surgery, but due to complications and a blot clot, I was cut open from groin to sternum and transfused. I spent 21 days there and the bill total was $265,000.00. Yes, a quarter of a million dollars!

The healthcare system is truly broken here and although I too, do not know the details of Hillary's plan, I admire a person who is willing to take on the challenge of trying to reform it. Let's see some details and let's discuss some alternatives. We "are all open to suggestions".

As far as Hillary thinking she is smarter than everyone else, I'm not sure I get that. I don't feel threatened by her and I do not have this nawing sense of her feeling that she is smarter than me. I haven't heard her "say" that she was smarter than anyone - other than perhaps George Bush. But then again, who isn't smarter than him???

But again, I am glad that we are really discussing the issues and the positions of potential candidates. I must say however, that I haven't heard one comment in any of the posts that can be substantiated by real fact. Just a lot of negative vibes!

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#38 Yesterday, 12:22 PM
BOBS DAD
Gingers Dad Too!! Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 983


Quote:
If medicine in the US becomes socialized you will also lose MANY Dr's and nurses because they can't make money. They will leave to other places where they can charge for everything again. That's what happened in Ontario. That is why it takes so long to get any care. The dr's couldn't make money so they moved their practice to somewhere that they could. Then we will be in the same predicament if not worse than we are now.



Sparks,

I am very sorry to hear about your loss and pregnancy issues and certainly would not want to bdebate you on a matter so personal and devasting.

With regards to DRs leaving the good ol' US of A. I am absolutely certain that they will for the most part, not. Where will they go??? The Congo, Afganistan or perhaps Mexico??? US is and will continue to be the most profitable and best paid Medical Industry in THE WORLD - regardless of what type of Insurance system is in place.

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#39 Yesterday, 12:46 PM
BOBS DAD
Gingers Dad Too!! Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 983


Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks19
Why do I dislike Hillary?

She is all about taking from the mediocre and giving to the poor as long as you don't take her stuff or her money. Of course I think taking money from anyone to give to anyone is terrible. yes there is a poverty problem but taking money from those who are just barely getting along and have worked VERY hard for their money is not exactly a tip top solution. And you can't punish people for being successful.

There are far better candidates than her.
I want the front bumper sticker



Have you ever heard the saying, "nothing from nothing leaves nothing"? If you have and you understand the meaning, then it should seem obvious to you that taxing those who have nothing or very little will leave you with nothing or very little.

How about you can't get blood from a stone? It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. And it doesn't take a genius in public office to figure out that 10, 20 or say 30% of nothing is still nothing! My cousins are from rural PA... they adopt that the very same position that you have expoused "that the Government wants to tax them to help pay for those that are less fortunate". I can't convince them that "they ARE the less fortunate". They have nothing and their salaries are meager. Do you realize how much the government would have to tax them to make any substantial difference. It is simply impossible. Yes, Hillary and some are in favor of raising taxes on some to help the less fortunate. I remember a fellow about 2000 years ago who sort of suggested similar things. But let's be honest, the government can only really begin to adequately deal with many of these verypressing social issues by asking for more from the very wealthy and succesful members of society who have benefitted from the American way.

Let's say the Government increases taxes on the top 2% of Americans. Oh... let's say they make a 1% tax on anyone making $2,000,000.00 a year. What does that add up to... hmmm, let's see. I get 20 Grand - check my math. The government would have to tax those making $50,000 (declarable) a year 40% - and of course they couldn't and wouldn't do that. Or they could tax maybe 55 of those lowly folks a mere .075% tax.

Believe me... I am no genius, but I am pretty sure that the government wants to get that money as quick and as easily as they can. Less paperwork, less effort in trying to collect, etc., etc.

If you've got nothing, you've got to stop worrying about the government trying to come and take it. If you have millions, maybe billions - you won't miss a few hundred thousand every year.

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#40 Today, 06:02 AM
Daisy and Delilah
♥ My Chihuahuas Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 6,317

First of all, I have to say that I'm with you Dan(BOBS DAD), on everything you've said so far. Especially, your comment about the last six years of disaster we've experienced in this country. You've made many good points, as always.

Just a question.......if Hillary isn't a good choice, who are some of you looking at as a good choices in the upcoming election? Why are these choices good? I didn't vote for George Bush either time and I want to make sure I educate myself in every way again this time.

I don't intend to hijack this thread. I'm reading that Hillary is not so popular for reasons mentioned. I just wonder who everyone feels is the best candidate. Feedback appreciated
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#41 Today, 07:10 AM
caseysmom
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: california
Posts: 3,744

Bob's dad I totally agree with you, lets argue issues at hand not morality or the candidates marital issues.
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Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

[borzoimom]

BM...if you are so turned off by politics why would you start a thread like that? Just curious it does seem rather odd.

Okay- I will tell you..
I use to be against the war, until the day we went to see my step son and his marine troop return from Iraq. The look on every single one- and it was a mass group of several platoons, obviously those young men felt what they did was important. Then as the days progressed- hearing the stories with pictures I cant post, of woman with baby carriages and their child in there- with enough explosives to blow UP TEXAS, or in peoples huts, with explosives to take out more than that- IF YOU DIDNT BELIEVE IT WAS A THREAT- you would after seeing that.. No ONE EVER on the media reports schools being built as neighborhoods stabilize or the progress of trade returning with people getting a normal life. They have a show on this once in a blue moon- but meanwhile all they focus is the areas still not stable- and considering the whole country was unstable when we went there- and the improvements made in area after area- its obviously progress. MAJOR PROGRESS..
As a Christian as the Bible states, the area will never not be fighting- that is what I believed- until seeing all that, all the pictures, seeing the faces on the men that went there- and facts of the lack of regard for human life to the point they have the money to make tank piercing missles- we need to stay there until its done.
As far as our fallen service men- let me tell you- more DIE AT NIGHT in DC on any given day then weeks to months in Iraq.. No kidding!!
If Clinton had done something in the first sets of bombings here- etc- maybe they would not have come here with airplanes into buildings. I saw the Pentagon burn- stuck in Arlington for 12 hours trying to get home- .. all because some " tribe" organization felt they could take on the US- a handful ot them- like 100 felt from our lack of involvement we were an easy target- .. Its like a bully- they see no reaction as weakness and come after us.
We live too close to the governement to not see things- but I do know this- if some small group can believe the US is a weak country- better check our history - .. The idea of " lets sit down and talk to open communications " is flat out STUPID! They havent gotton along for thousands of years- do not respect women anyway- and to have someone like Hillary- where her husband did nothing either, they would just laugh her right out of the room of "peace talks"... Only one thing they respect- POWER- thats it.. Its so obvious its not even funny..

[Daisy and Delilah]

WOW!!!! I finally responded to the other thread this morning and it disappeared?? I mentioned I didn't want to hijack the thread and I'm sorry if I did. Personally, I saw, some discord about Hillary and I wanted to know how people felt about other candidates. Just trying to do some research since I'm not really educated on the subject, as of yet.

I was encouraged that the thread had taken a new direction of notating more concrete material about certain things. BOBS DAD always interests me in what he says.

Thanks caseysmom for starting a new thread

borzoimom: Karen can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the Dog House. It's okay to discuss politics and/or religion as long as we do it in a civilized manner Seeing as how the majority of the country may have not known all the facts before voting for our current president, it can only be beneficial that we have an educational discussion of the facts here.

[Ceph]

I didnt delete it because of a difference of opinion- I deleted it to keep things from getting too heated.
You have to understand = where I live outside the DC area, we are innodated with polictics 24/7.. I have seen them turn really bad.
I have every right to delete any thread to keep things from getting heated.

I just wanted to mention this in the Grownup discussion so you maybe understood a little where Borzoimom comes from. I live even closer to DC up in Maryland, and during the election I couldnt go to school without being called an idiot, misogynist (I know thats spelled wrong) a masochist and gullible...try that on a 14 year old girl...and those were my friends. I drove an SUV (evil, world polluter, destroyer) because it was all I could afford...I was evil because I was Catholic and I was a whole host of bad things because I am not a feminist and because I tend to have a bad view of feminists due to the propaganda I was shown by my friends calling me a bad woman because I supported Bush. I joined the Army and I would be raped, I was wasting my life and destroying my soul. Again...at 14 years old the people I considered my friends said these things....it has a really bad effect on how you look at life...makes you very solitary...makes you miss the fun things....makes you hate life a little even. Its still upsetting when I think about how I was treated for being strong enough to be different.
Just so you all know, that is probably what Borzoimom means when she mentions things turning bad in our area. They tend to turn very ugly very fast, and it tends to affect people in a way that most dont understand. Sorry if this is a little late in the thread, but she had the right to delete it.

Edit : Here's my view on the whole politics thing...being in college right now. I am in a military school on a highly liberal campus. My teachers only present one point of view, they only say one thing. I call it lemming-azation. There is nothing more frustrating in life then not being able to make the decision for yourself because you are not being given all the data. Thats what the media does...thank goodness for my Army instructors...the ones that have been over there and served...the green berets and 101st and the 82nd. They tell us about the good and the bad, so at least I can make an informed decision for myself.

And as far as the War....I joined when it happened...and I know that eventually I will be sent over there...It'll probably wreak havoc on me, and on my family...but you know what...I will be doing something...I will be making a difference...I will be serving my nation and I will also be in a position to help protect those to my front and my rear, and to my left and my right. That's worth the most....There are so many things I can do to help....

[borzoimom]

Yes like people ramming into your car for having a different bumper sticker- etc..

[Ceph]

Yes like people ramming into your car for having a different bumper sticker- etc..

yeah....thats about the gyst of it...having your tires slashed, eggs thrown at you....yeah....sneered at in uniform = thats my favorite.

[borzoimom]

lol, or cutting the tires, having eggs thrown at you etc...welcome to Nova and the Metro urbs....where if you're not the same you're the great evil.

Or like my step son- with enough pictures of explosives hidden every where you could not imagine- seeing what he did see- and called an idiot for doing it.. Or going to Haiti to stop the uprising while the people applauded our pressence in the street like a celebration- .. And here is this woman- under the pretext of "I am a woman, wife of an ex president", who cant make up her mind where she stands- quick to judge actions she endorsed, meanwhile- accepted low morality with her own husband.. And back tracking faster than she is walking forward in what she did vote on.. I would love to have a woman president- but at the current time, with the situation in Iraq etc, who are NOT going to accept any advice from a 'woman" the timing could not be worse... When I worked in the post office, we had several woman- that if I as a supervisor but still a woman- if I gave instructions- do you know they would honestly go run to their husbands that worked in another area to see if they should do it???? THAT IS the mentality we are dealing with- that and coupled with the fact- that while they continue to " show grief" at loss of life- they do it again- time and time again.
How I feel about Hillary her self is one thing that I would never vote for her- but the second is what we need to continue in Iraq etc and how they see woman ...
I like would like to have condelissa better than Hillary- at least I know that it would be someone that understands the situation over there better than HIllary.. Even still- knowing how its received to have a " woman in charge"- even that is a gamble.. Its sad- but true- as they say " know your enemies better than you do your friends.."

[RICHARD]

Misogynist...


Finally,
A thread where someene else besides me is 'naughty'



Hillary, you have already been President for 8 years, give someone else a crack at it.

[sparks19]

Hillary, you have already been President for 8 years, give someone else a crack at it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA How true. Bill truly was a puppet and Hillary wore the pants LOL. not only did she wear the pants but she wouldn't even let him in the pants.... Hence Monica LOL

but really, my biggest concern is that women are going to vote for her just becuase she is a woman and not because of her "ideas". Although I don't think there enough of the TRULY feminist out there to make a huge difference in the election but that scares me.

[Pam]

I have deleted the other thread twice( how did it get back up I want to know..) - the purpose was for a chuckle ( front bumper) or affirmation of putting on the back bumper..
Politics and religion probably should not be on here.. I know what I think.. and my opinions as such- I dont trust what comes out of her mouth- and it changes with the wind.. Typical Clinton- blame someone else.. I dont like it..
I like people with a clear path- that get on something and stay with it- I am like that with my dogs even or even house cleaning- ..

I never saw the other thread but can imagine, from what you are saying, how it went. I, too, find her talking out of both sides of her mouth. Out of the possible candidates running right now I would have to go with Biden (even though he was criticized for not being politically correct in his comments about Obama). Geesh! Who would want to be president anyway?

This has nothing to do with Hillary, but did anyone see Leno last night? He was commenting on Rudy Guiliano entering the race and said that makes 24 or 25 people running, and half are claiming that they are the father of Anna Nicole's baby! LOL!