Mr. Biggles is being put to sleep tomorrow

[luvofallhorses]

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers?

someone would take him if we didn't already have our own animals to deal with. I feel bad for Mr. Biggles. and what doesn't make sense to me is that if you take Mr. Biggles back to the shelter, you have to bring the other dog back, too. that has never happened when we adopted out 2 dogs together, ever.

[king2005]

someone would take him if we didn't already have our own animals to deal with. I feel bad for Mr. Biggles. and what doesn't make sense to me is that if you take Mr. Biggles back to the shelter, you have to bring the other dog back, too. that has never happened when we adopted out 2 dogs together, ever.

It was part of our contract. Both dogs must stay together period. So if we return one, they both have to go. I have no control over it, so when 1 is returned to attacking they both are PTS.. But because Mr. Biggles attacked I can pay to have him PTS & I can be there while he goes to the RB

[applesmom]

Even after a lifetime with dogs, living alone and not having a dog at the moment; I'll have to be honest and say I wouldn't even consider taking on Mr Biggles and his problems.

Not while there are millions of loving well adjusted dogs being put to death every year!!!!

Mr Biggles is a victim, but so are the many individuals that tried to provide him with a loving home only to be forced to dump him back in the shelter again. There is no way of knowing how many people he has bitten in his eight years. It was just a matter of time, Mr. Biggles original owners sealed his fate years ago.

[Blue_Frog]

and what doesn't make sense to me is that if you take Mr. Biggles back to the shelter, you have to bring the other dog back, too. that has never happened when we adopted out 2 dogs together, ever.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that the dogs were adopted from the THS's 'Bonded Pair' programme --
http://www.torontohumanesociety.com/...onded_pets.asp
These are pets that are adoped out together as a pair, and returned as a pair if need be. From my understanding, this particular pair has been returned several times to the THS already, making this the last chance they have for a home, and another return would result in both being PTS.

Also, from what i understand, Jess also signed a contract stating that if there were problems with the dogs, they were to be returned to the THS as a pair, and could -not- be rehomed by her.

The fact that one dog, regarless of size, has bitten twice is cause for concern all around. I sympathize for everyone involved, and god only knows what happened in Mr.B's past that would give him this reaction. However, now Chad has been attacked. Not bitten, but a bite/tear enough to cause a 4 inch gash, bleeding and bruising.

If this was a larger dog, the results may have been much worse. If it was the Rottweiler that had attacked (instead of the 10 pound malteese mix) and torn a larger chunk out of Chad than a 4" gash, would the situation be the same? Would there be any question about the dog being PTS? Its unlikely that an unpredictable human agressive small dog has the potential of killing someone that a large breed with the same issues might.

The natural human reaction to being attacked is fear, and it seems now that Chad is unable to live in the house with this dog, with the unpredictability of not knowing if he will be bitten again even if the chances were slim to none. The dog can't be rehomed. The dogs will both likely be PTS if returned. A dog trainer/behaviourist may help - in weeks, months or years at this point, depending on how badly scarred this dog is, or how ingrained the behaviour. Can they live in the house for that long with the possiblility of more attacks?

Jess is making a hard decision, and the decision that she feels is best in this situation. I hope the best for her, and the household.

[luvofallhorses]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that the dogs were adopted from the THS's 'Bonded Pair' programme --
http://www.torontohumanesociety.com/...onded_pets.asp
These are pets that are adoped out together as a pair, and returned as a pair if need be. From my understanding, this particular pair has been returned several times to the THS already, making this the last chance they have for a home, and another return would result in both being PTS.

Also, from what i understand, Jess also signed a contract stating that if there were problems with the dogs, they were to be returned to the THS as a pair, and could -not- be rehomed by her.

The fact that one dog, regarless of size, has bitten twice is cause for concern all around. I sympathize for everyone involved, and god only knows what happened in Mr.B's past that would give him this reaction. However, now Chad has been attacked. Not bitten, but a bite/tear enough to cause a 4 inch gash, bleeding and bruising.

If this was a larger dog, the results may have been much worse. If it was the Rottweiler that had attacked (instead of the 10 pound malteese mix) and torn a larger chunk out of Chad than a 4" gash, would the situation be the same? Would there be any question about the dog being PTS? Its unlikely that an unpredictable human agressive small dog has the potential of killing someone that a large breed with the same issues might.

The natural human reaction to being attacked is fear, and it seems now that Chad is unable to live in the house with this dog, with the unpredictability of not knowing if he will be bitten again even if the chances were slim to none. The dog can't be rehomed. The dogs will both likely be PTS if returned. A dog trainer/behaviourist may help - in weeks, months or years at this point, depending on how badly scarred this dog is, or how ingrained the behaviour. Can they live in the house for that long with the possiblility of more attacks?

Jess is making a hard decision, and the decision that she feels is best in this situation. I hope the best for her, and the household.

I am sorry I didn't know that.. but thanks for informing me.

[Blue_Frog]

I am sorry I didn't know that.. but thanks for informing me.

No worries, I haven't heard of this programme outside of the THS before either Just thought i'd post the link that might hopefully clear up why both dogs were more than just adopted together

[Miss Z]

I don't really have too much to say on the matter, I've had a scan through the thread but I've not taken a lot in as I'm a bit tired tonight, so excuse me if I've missed a few key points.

What I do have to say though is this whole thread makes me very, VERY sad. If I cast my mind back I can remember another similar thread about an animal being put down that king2005 posted. I really hope that this situation is resolved in the best way possible for all involved.

[king2005]

I don't really have too much to say on the matter, I've had a scan through the thread but I've not taken a lot in as I'm a bit tired tonight, so excuse me if I've missed a few key points.

What I do have to say though is this whole thread makes me very, VERY sad. If I cast my mind back I can remember another similar thread about an animal being put down that king2005 posted. I really hope that this situation is resolved in the best way possible for all involved.

If this is the rat I'm thinking about, he was ill. Yes the treatment could work, but in my past exp. my rats ended up suffering far longer then feeling good. So how is having a pet put down due to an illness thats causing them pain & weakness a bad thing how?

You also for got to mention that I didn't own him

[Miss Z]

If this is the rat I'm thinking about, he was ill. Yes the treatment could work, but in my past exp. my rats ended up suffering far longer then feeling good. So how is having a pet put down due to an illness thats causing them pain & weakness a bad thing how?

You also for got to mention that I didn't own him

I'm not going to go through the whole rat thread all over again. That got me and many others very upset and you know it. I don't seem to recall you ever mentioning he wasn't yours, perhaps I did indeed miss that, but anyway, where I come from at least, you can not legally put a pet down without the owner's consent.

I just hope that this time Mr. Biggles is luckier than Grissim.

And please stop trying to spy on us all on gabbly. If you really feel that this forum isn't right for you, then that's entirely your decision and no-one will interfere with that.

[Catty1]

Lori - what options would you recommend?

Biggles is not allowed to be rehomed. NOT. By the shelter.

And it seems Jess was misled about the reason the dogs were returned. She stressed no aggression - which is necessary because Jess and Chad have their own things to deal with.

And the shelter lied.

I hope Chad saw a doctor for his wound and is up on his tetanus shots.

Many pets here live in far from perfect homes, so let's not start pointing fingers, ok?

I have been on meds thru my life, Lori - and will be for the rest. It is for clinical depression. It is when conditions like this are NOT treated that trouble happens - and Jess is getting help, as is Chad.

I think they could have dogs again - but no more "returned" dogs.

C

[Catlady711]

It was a puppy for god sake!It actually was New York Animal Precingt

New York Animal Precinct (ASPCA) - 8 million people, 5 million animals, says so right in their introduction to the show.

According to their website ...

14 uniformed and plainclothes officers investigate more than 4,000 cases per year.

In 2000, over 33,000 calls and inquiries were received by HLE (Humane Law Enforcement) of which 4,262 were cruelty complaints for investigation. There were 55 arrests made, 30 summonses issued and 537 animals seized.


According to the ASPCA website...

No government institution or animal organization is responsible for tabulating national statistics for the animal protection movement.


Approximately 8 million to 12 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 5 million to 9 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats). Shelter intakes are about evenly divided between those animals relinquished by owners and those picked up by animal control. These are national estimates; the percentage of euthanasia may vary from state to state.


More than 20 percent of people who leave dogs in shelters adopted them from a shelter. (Source: NCPPSP)

Five out of ten dogs in shelters and seven out of ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them.


According to ASPCA of New York also...

New York

Regulating Authority/Agency (for municipal animal shelters; for private shelters)
State Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets. See N.Y. Agric. & Mkts. § 108 (1999)

Adoption Procedures
- 1. The legislature finds that the uncontrolled breeding of dogs and cats in the state results in an overabundance of puppies and kittens. More puppies and kittens are produced than responsible homes for them can be provided. This leads to many of such animals becoming stray and suffering privation and death, being impounded and destroyed at great expense to the community and constituting a public nuisance and health hazard. It is therefore declared to be the public policy of New York state that every feasible humane means of reducing the production of unwanted puppies and kittens be encouraged.



Puppy or not, do you want to be the one to let one or more of those 537 animals stay in homes of neglect and abuse because their isn't the money or cage space available because of one agressive dog that may or may not be adoptable?

[Lori Jordan]

New York Animal Precinct (ASPCA) - 8 million people, 5 million animals, says so right in their introduction to the show.

According to their website ...

14 uniformed and plainclothes officers investigate more than 4,000 cases per year.

In 2000, over 33,000 calls and inquiries were received by HLE (Humane Law Enforcement) of which 4,262 were cruelty complaints for investigation. There were 55 arrests made, 30 summonses issued and 537 animals seized.


According to the ASPCA website...

No government institution or animal organization is responsible for tabulating national statistics for the animal protection movement.


Approximately 8 million to 12 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 5 million to 9 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats). Shelter intakes are about evenly divided between those animals relinquished by owners and those picked up by animal control. These are national estimates; the percentage of euthanasia may vary from state to state.


More than 20 percent of people who leave dogs in shelters adopted them from a shelter. (Source: NCPPSP)

Five out of ten dogs in shelters and seven out of ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them.


According to ASPCA of New York also...

New York

Regulating Authority/Agency (for municipal animal shelters; for private shelters)
State Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets. See N.Y. Agric. & Mkts. § 108 (1999)

Adoption Procedures
- 1. The legislature finds that the uncontrolled breeding of dogs and cats in the state results in an overabundance of puppies and kittens. More puppies and kittens are produced than responsible homes for them can be provided. This leads to many of such animals becoming stray and suffering privation and death, being impounded and destroyed at great expense to the community and constituting a public nuisance and health hazard. It is therefore declared to be the public policy of New York state that every feasible humane means of reducing the production of unwanted puppies and kittens be encouraged.



Puppy or not, do you want to be the one to let one or more of those 537 animals stay in homes of neglect and abuse because their isn't the money or cage space available because of one agressive dog that may or may not be adoptable?

Not at all that is not what i am trying to say,I agree with you but a 4 month old puppy i find that obserd!The point im trying to get across is that if they worked with that puppy,The lady is on staff that takes care of that dept,He passed everything but the food agressive,Now all they did was started to pout....That puppy lost his life because he was hungry i dont care what the numbers are that women was not a dog behavioralist obviously!

[Catlady711]

Not at all that is not what i am trying to say,I agree with you but a 4 month old puppy i find that obserd!The point im trying to get across is that if they worked with that puppy,The lady is on staff that takes care of that dept,He passed everything but the food agressive,Now all they did was started to pout....That puppy lost his life because he was hungry i dont care what the numbers are that women was not a dog behavioralist obviously!

Regardless of age, a 4 month old has to have a home just as much as an older dog. Agression in a puppy is just as serious as an older dog. And since I've watched the show quite a bit myself, I do believe that all the dogs they test, they FIRST do a health check on and get the dog back up to proper weight before they attempt the testing. These are professionals and have training to help them help the dogs.

Whether you agree or dissagree with the woman's abilities as a dog behavioralist, it's her job and she's doing it the best she can to help those that she can and to protect people and other animals. If you think you can do better I'm sure there are a TON of shelters that would love for you to voulunteer your services to them to help those you can, and I'm sure the animals would thank you gratefully for it.

Given the lack of good homes available, the number of rescues/siezures they have, the amount of money and cage space available, they simply can only put x amount of time, effort, and money into any one dog, and it's usually based on whether or not that dog has a good chance of being adopted. The numbers are a fact and cannot be avoided regardless of sentiment.

They simply do not go around euthanizing animals without a very good reason. The name of the organization is the ASPCA which stands for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. It's simply a sad fact of life that some have to be euthanized because of overpopulation. It is simply impossible to save every single animal out there, which is why they work so hard on educating the public on proper care, and spaying/neutering.

[Catty1]

Jess - when was Chad's last tetanus shot? That's my only concern.

How much is a behaviourist going to cost? And where will Biggles stay?

For those who missed it, Chad went through a nasty bout with flesh-eating disease, chemo (I remember that thread)- and the reason they took so long to find dogs with no aggression is because a bite literally can kill Chad if another infection sets up.

He is now understandably terrified to be in the same house with Biggles.

I am surprised no one is blasting the shelter because they apparently lied about this. Jess, did you find out if they did lie?

In any case, Jess and Chad have their hands full with a human "behaviouralist", and a dog they were told was not aggressive.

Again, it's between Jess and the vet - if the vet has any bright ideas, that would be great.

Take care all.