Sep. 11th Picture!

[Ann]

Wow, it's still open. That's nice. Let me respond to you all in order here...

Soledad:

I'm glad that atleast someone can see it the way I do. I actually haven't heard about Dawkins, but I'd be very interested in learning. So if you have the time, please do tell me about it or give me the URL to some sites about it. Thanks

Rottieluver45:

I'm not offended, not at all. I enjoy having "deeper" discussions, so it's no worries.

Sara luvs her Tinky:

"The Bible is one of the most awesome books in the world. It has 66 authors and not one contridiction in the whole book." - Really? First off it does NOT have 66 different authors. It has 66 books, but not authors. For example it is belived that Moses wrote 4 books and so on. And for you to say there are no contradictions in that NOVEL just cracks me up laughing. The bible is nothing BUT contradictions. Take a look at this website. You might find it interesting. Let me just take one of the MANY examples at that site:

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

And the list goes on and on and on... Just take a look at that site, and if you'd like to see even more, lemme know and I can show you some more sites like the above one.

"non believers don't see these things simply because they are non believers. God is so awesome and so real... and when you said we are close minded is so untrue." - Thank you for proving my point. You are close minded because it has never crossed your mind that YOU are seeing those "things" because you ARE a beliver.

popcornbird:

I honestly didn't have the strength to go through the site you posted. I read parts and it just turned out to be the typical stuff I have heard thousands of times from people who wanted me to "see the light".

"God is NOT like us. It is very bad to say something like that." - Why is it very bad to say something like that? Hmmm? I thought he was supposed to be a LOVING god, not a vengeful one. LOL

"I don't know what you mean by 'then the picture of the Devil in the smoke can't be real.'" - I meant that if it was like you said that God writes down everything that happens, then he wrote down for 9/11 to happen and thus the devil would have nothing to do with it. Get what I mean now?

"Animals do not have free choice in belief, and all animals believe in God (including your pets)." - You have no clue whatsoever how much that quote disgusted me. No clue. I will not comments on that because I know I'd probably would get banned if I were to speak my mind.

"I am not impossing my beliefs on you, and neither was anyone else." - When you say things like "I just want to say one thing, may God guide all those who don't believe in Him before its too late." then you ARE cramming your beliefs down my throat. How can you not see that?!

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Anyways, I don't have time to write more right now but I ask all you belivers out there to take this quiz. It's a quiz about the bible, and you might see some very interesting things about your "awsome book" there. Please do take it, it'll be amusing to hear your thougs on it.

There's also this site, which discussed some interesting things.

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"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." - Robert M. Pirsig

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" - Mahatma Gandhi

[kohala]

I think the reason many don't believe, is that it seems contradictory to put a finite "face" on an infinite (state of) being. I doubt that "non-believers" are as doomed as some might think just because they don't believe in a word.
As for faith, there isn't anyone posting on these boards that hasn't demonstrated their faith by their devotion to "beings" other than human.
Bucky Fuller said it well; "I seem to be a verb."
Deeds, not words, determine our worth.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Ann... I went to the quiz sight and from the beginning realized it was not a true quiz to determine what we know about the Bible but how much someone wants to demean the belief of those who follow the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I do mean inerrant too!!! The quiz was a slander and joke obviously written by someone who does not believe in God!

The other site you listed also is a joke because it doesn't believe in the possibility of creationism but is strictly a evolutionists point of view. I can refer you to many sites on the net that are pro-creation vs. evolution but that is just showing how I believe and not what is absolute truth. I do not believe in the big band theory and think evolution is an escape for people who can not believe in something they can not see to idealize HOW man came into being what he is today. This is not an open minded discussion because through these last two links you posted for us to look at, it is apparent you also are not open minded. You do not believe in a supreme omniscience creator so how can we expect that you would be open minded to the idea that there is, just as believers are positive their is a creator and that we have not evolved from apes!

As for the Bible being full of contridictions..... anyone can take something and get it out of context and make it sound like it is a contridiction. It's the age old game of having someone at the beginning of the line say something and by the end of the line it is not what was originally said. The references you stated were exactly that... verses taken out of context. Let me show you what I mean!
What you quoted....
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)

the correct quotation...

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not bow down to them or whorship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me... Exodus 20:6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


your quotation....
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

The correct quotation...

Exodus 34:6-7 (6)"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, (7)maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.

Meaning behind these verses....
The Israelites had just come from Egypt, a land of many idols and many gods. Because each god represented a different aspect of life, it was common to worship many gods in order to get the maximum number of blessings. When God told his people to worship and believe in him, that wasn't so hard for them... he was just one more god to add to the list. But when he said, "You shall have no other gods before me, " that was difficult for the people to accept. But if they didn't learn that the God who led them out of Egypt was the only true God, they could not be his people - no matter how faithfully they kept the other nine commandments. So God made this his first commandment and emphasized it more than the others.

Considering that in Exodus 34 we are talking about when Moses was commanded by the Lord to bring two stone tablets to Mount Sinai and the Lord was going to reveal himself to Moses there is information there that needs to be understood also. God knew the people were struggling.

So you want to know why the sins of the parents would effect even the grandchildren and great grandchildren? This was no arbitrary punishment. God is Holy.... so Holy that he told Moses that if he saw his face, he would die. Because no one could look into the Holy face of God and live. God knew there were going to be those who would not give up their idols and other gods. These dire consequences of sin were not limited to the individual family member but would influence the generations to come.

Let's consider.... How do children suffer the consequence of sin in their parents lives today? Many children are abused physically, sexually, emotionally in todays society. There are other sins that are not so noticeable such as selfishness and greed. These are all things that can be passed on to the next generation. How many adults are suffering now because they were beat when they were kids, they go to counseling because they were living in dysfunctional homes, they do drugs or have elicit sexually encounters looking for happiness or a way to escape pain. We all see it. These are all results of the sins of the parents. God is gracious though that he does forgive and is quick to forgive to the repentant people. I for one can see the result of faithful parents in my life. I thankfully do not have to deal with a lot of the garbage that some of my friends deal with.


vs.

Your quote...
Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

The correct quote...

Ezekiel 18:14 and 17-20 (14)"But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:... (17) He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest he keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. (18) But his father will die for his own sin, becasue he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. (19) Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of the father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. (20) The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be chared against him."

God is giving the ability of the sins of the generations to stop. In Exodus he is showing that the sins of the father can carry onto generations to come as far as three and four generations. I know in my life the things that my Great Grandfather did that effected even my generation. I also know that the cycle stopped when my parents broke the cycle and repented. God is just and is willing and able to forgive us our sins if we acknowledge him and turn from our evil ways.

There are no contridictions in the Bible if it is taken in context. If it is taken out of context then you can come up with 100's or maybe even thousands of contridictions.

I must say that in the last few weeks I have noticed that most of your posts have hostility associated with them in some way or another and you claim that it is in the name of a healthy debate. I think there are debate sites out on the net somewhere but also don't think that Pet Talk is where you should be venting your negative comments. I was always told that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all.

I will pray that the Lord will touch your life in some way and that there will be a possibility of him revealing himself to you. He does reveal himself to me everyday... even if it is in the soft gentle blowing of the wind. Because I know for certaintly in my heart the "Just like air, God is there!!!" That may be the problem here. You are trying to comprehend the vastness of God in your mind and not in your heart.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Well I'm just an old Lady and not all that smart, I love my Country and I believe in God. You can bet your bottom dollar that all of you who don't believe in any God, will, on your death bed, be praying to some God and asking for forgiveness and hoping to go to Heaven.
Jackie

[WendyW]

To the few that hate God and everything about America, why do you bother to hang out around us idiots?! That does not sound like someone so sure of themselves. Oh I get it, lets say God and America is crap and live life bitter, telling everyone how screwed up they are. Wanna be like that? Some enlightment - life sucks then u die!

p.s. This is SOOOOO persuasive to getting me to change what I believe by having a handful of rudes say I'm full of cat litter for my beliefs. What ever happened to agree to disagree? Why not tolerate a different view?

[Rottieluver45]

I just wanna say,before Wendy destroys this topic,That I do believe in God,nothing`s gonna change that,and I respect every one`s beliefs! No matter what!

[WendyW]

I just don't like ppl trashing my God and country, that all. Can't animal lovers be people lovers, huh?

[Rottieluver45]

Well,I don`t think they are really trying to trash God and our Country! They are just saying what they believe! Just their opinions.

[Former User]

Why don't we all keep our religious views to ourselves? That way we don't have to fight here about that! Religion is one of those hot topics and will always cause a stir or whatever when brought up.

[WendyW]

i'm saying at least one of em can't disagree without being very rude. let's be nice about it.

[Rottieluver45]

Casper & Kitty We all need to get some stuff about religion off our chests and we have a right to. And We can`t just keep it bottled up inside us!

[Former User]

Originally posted by Rottieluver45
Casper & Kitty We all need to get some stuff about religion off our chests and we have a right to. And We can`t just keep it bottled up inside us!

oh well excuse me for daring to suggest something!

[Rottieluver45]

Originally posted by Casper & Kitty


oh well excuse me for daring to suggest something!

I`m sorry I didn`t mean it in a rude way.I`m just saying that we really need to get some of this stuff out!

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Yes ... Dixie your words explinations were great....

And Ann....
You were right... the Bible has 66 books and 44 authors.. my mistake.
You can't believe every thing you read off the internet. I don't know what search engine you used to find some web site with some so called contridictions of the Bible in it. Any one could read the Bible and nick pick things out of it here and there that sounds good to their ears and make it sound like they know what they are talking about on some web page.... so lets look at this again.. I was intrigued to study this out myself...

Exodus 20:5
5.For I the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6.but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me andkeep My commandments

ok now if you research this some the hebrew verb translated visiting can mean coming in an act of mercy or coming in divine judgement. So this is saying a fathers sins effect the third and fourth generation but God has mercy for them and they have and opportunity to turn from their fathers sins....

Exodus 34: 6-7
6. And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, The Lord the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7.keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sins, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and fourth generation.

once again the hebrew verb translated visiting can mean coming in an act of mercy or coming in divine judgement.

Exekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father not the father bear the guilt of the son.

I think that is self explanatory.

Deutoronimy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sinn.

Once again that sounds self explanatory.

So where is the contradiction. All four verses agree with themselves.

Mainly I want to say I am not here to argue the word. I would love to say give me another so called contradicion and I will research it out for you but my job as a christian is to bring the word to a lost world not argue with them. And please dont believe just anything you find on the internet and get a bible and study it out for youself.

Thank you for proving my point. You are close minded because it has never crossed your mind that YOU are seeing those "things" because you ARE a beliver.

O.k. now their is no reason to attack me. You stated your opinion and I stated what I know.
For example if you see a dog run up to you and feel it lick your hand you know that dog is really there..... I see God and his works with my own eyes and feel his presence and his joy. Not because I am a close minded believer but because he is REAL... when you see things and feel things that generally is the FACTS THAT THEY ARE REALLY THERE.

[kohala]

What's it like where you all are?
You know, speaking of 9/11, wasn't there an atmosphere of unity throughout the world for a while? Now look at us here, doing a micro version of the macroscopic problems in the world these days. Except we are only using words, not arms. And what are we discussing? Religion.
Not our spiritual beliefs, which we all have no matter how we define them, but our "religion".
See why there are so many wars?

The issue of separation of Church and State is not meant to negate Church, but to prevent ONE Church from controlling all society. If that seems offensive, consider this: There would be no guarantee as to which Church it would be should it be allowed to happen. Think about that for a moment. Then look at Afghanistan - now there was a Church at work running a state for an example.

Once again, dear hearts, we are getting hung up in semantics. If your faith is strong, it will radiate in your deeds. All too often it gets muddied up in words. And all to often we condemn truly spiritual, loving people because they don't share our particular definitions.

So how's your day? What have your furkids been doing to entertain you this morning? Or evening ?