White Shepherds

[wolfsoul]

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

[jackfrost]

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

Haven't we been thru this before. Yeah, there is a need for service dogs, nobody really "needs" a schutzhund dog. BUT the reason the GSD and all its glory and multi uses and guard, SAR, drug, leader of the blind, capabilities is because the breeding stock was tested and tested and proven and proven before it could be used. THAT IS THE POINT. Schutzhund is a proving ground. When you have dogs that don't have a title in the pedigree for 5,6 or more generations and you have not proven your breeding stock either, what exactly does that show??

I wouldn't be worried about people rejecting your puppies you donate because they're from bite trained parents. That's rediculous. any lower drive puppies that have good temperments will not be turned away. You see testing and proving working stock has allowed us to have a breed that consistently produces dogs that can do anything. Take 10 litters and you'll find a good number of dogs suitable to do any job we need from those litters. That's what testing and proving our stock has done. From partol and military work, bot scent detection and leaders of the blind.

Her getting a title on her dog and proving it as a working dog would do a lot. She'd be proving her working stock. a dog from 30 years ago means nothing. She or anyone else making these claims of how WGSD's are healthier, have more intelligence and more drive could hold some water if she'd title her ONE dog, and others would do the same. They could show consistency in their litters, in their breeding stock, just like the GSD's have done. (and I'm not talking AKC one's that also have proven nothing, sure you get a few here and there that can do something, but not many)

You can compare belgians to GSD's I see them working and proving themselves all the time. I'd be happy to hear your comparisons, i'll give you mine. I have something to compare them too, cause i've seen them and people are proving their working stock, they aren't even in the same situation as the WGSD's where they make all claims and have no proof.

[mike001]

Wolfsoul, where we come from, the Humane society runs that program, so no big deal. Every town, city or province runs their programs accordingly. We are far from putting service dogs down, we are just saying that if you own just a pet and want to breed you should know all about the dog you are breeding beforehand.
You keep saying Therapy Dog, then you change to Service Dog. The two are as different as night and day, so I don't really know what you mean. Nicole said she was breeding for Service dogs, not Therapy dogs. and she has not mentioned doing therapy work with her dog at all. I think you are jumbling all the posts.
Your dog needs to be certified to be a therapy dog. she shies away from answering who certified her dog. She shies away from discussing Genetics. This is one of the most important aspects of breeding. Anyone can put two dogs together and have pups, that's what we are trying to show.
I gave a good source of information ....Fred Lanting, if you really want to educate yourself, read his sites. They are not the easiest thing to understand and it does make for long reading, but well worth it.
Why would I be putting Service dogs down? Or Therapy dogs? I have a therapy dog here. I wouldn't be afraid to post the date it was certified, etc.
By the way, the site on Pets and People do explain the requirements for a therapy dog, I was wondering if you bothered reading it?

[NicoleLJ]

Mike I think you need glasses. I have discussed genetics. In fact I even provided a link toteh White Shepherd genetics progect. Also I have told you when you asked me the first time. Sheena is not certified with a program because she is not program trained. Did you under stand that this time? There is NO law in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be program trained. NONE NANA Nothing. As for doing without her I won't be. I will be staying home when she is pregnant and has her pups. She still does all teh same work at home. We just don't leave the house. Which for someone like me is a vaction. I have answered all your questions OVer and OVER and OVER agian. You are the one that chooses to ignore the responses. Which is why I am sick of answering you two. You keep asking the same questions and we keep giving you answers and proof and you keep ignoring it. It has gotten boring. You sound like my two year old when he asks a question over and over agian. At least he has an excuse for not remebering. What is yours?

Wolfsoul let them have this thread. Tehy will never listen. no answer is good enough for them.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

You must be thinking of a different Pets and People -- the Pets and People I'm talking about is completely local -- it has not branched out into other areas. It was founded by Marjorie Rutherford and her groenendael. Yes I've read the requirements, I have the forms -- I will possibly go through the screeing with my Solo when he is old enough. Visa wouldn't pass as the screening is done at the vet's office and it's the one place she is not herself (she had parvo as a puppy and spent several weeks in intensive care -- been terrified of the place since ).

If you look at some of her old posts you'll see she says her dog is a service dog, and she isn't certfified -- all of the therapy dogs I know are not certified either. Like I said before, my dog's mother was a therapy dog with only her Canadian championship, and my other dog's grandfather with only his Companion Dog Excellent -- they did not need certifications

Edit: whoops, meant to say service dog.

I attached a couple pictures of my boy's grandfather, Kestevne's Phantom CDX, doing his therapy work.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul just so you know Sheena is a PSD Psychiatric Service Dog. She is not a threapy dog though she could do the job with ease. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Wolfsoul just so you know Sheena is a PSD Psychiatric Service Dog. She is not a threapy dog though she could do the job with ease. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nicole

Then PROVE IT, more words no substance, its a common thing with you isn't it? Prove your breeding stock. Talk is cheap and that's all you have. Good luck. You can say you've answered and given proof over and over again, apparently you believe yourself. Meanwhile the questions still get ignored and skirted with pity parties you like to throw for yourself. I"m still waiting for those links. How come I have a feeling i'll just get more words and baseless claims? Where's the emoticon for head banging on desk or wall

[mike001]

Wolfsoul you are still in the dark re aservice dog and a therapy dog.Go to Canines with a Cause. This is a program that is also in Ottawa, called CWAC. It might shed some light on what we are discussing. It describes the steps one has to take for obtaining a service dog. The matching, training, cost, certification etc
You might understand better what a service dog is. As for psd's they are not recognized in Canada unless assessed by a training team and the owner has medical references to uphold the need for one. Only a physician or psychiatrist is allowed to sign the necessary documents. As for the US I can't speak for their laws. But you will note in the CWAC that it states that an owner's pet dog is not used to train as a service dog. It also states that the dogs need at least basic obedience.
Nice to say, oh, my dog could do that real easy....but if you've never done it in the ring, then you really don't know if your dog has the courage to work under stressful conditions.
Did you bother to read Fred Lanting's sites? It doesn't sound like youdid or you would know what we are talking about when we say "GENETICS", and it's not old things from another era.

[NicoleLJ]

I love Canines with a Cause. Great CHARITY. There are many training facilites for servcie dogs in Canada. There is only one type of service dog that is recognized and protected throughout Canada. That is dogs for the blind. Our laws here are unfortunately way behind the times. But many of us, including myself are trying to change that. There is no law that all service dogs must be registered. Simply because there is no governing body that covers all service dogs in canada. I hope this helps to clear up misconceptions.




The Canadian Provinces


The Canadian Provinces independently have their own laws that define the rights of disabled persons. Generally, there have been two approaches. Some provinces have a Blind Persons’ Rights Act. These define, fairly specifically, where the disabled person with a dog may go, important considerations in housing, what happens if these rights are violated, and any penalties associated with them. Trainers rights or requirements, licenses or fees, identification requirements, and injury to the dog may also be included. In this respect, some provinces have statutes that are quite similar to those found in the United States. The provinces that have taken this approach include Alberta, British Columbia, Labrador, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, and Quèbec. While this type of law was originally written to accommodate blind persons, a number of the provinces have broadened their scope through amendments that extend these rights to deaf or hearing impaired and disabled persons.

Another approach is seen in the Human Rights Acts. The Human Rights approach covers a broader issue of discrimination in a much wider section of society. For example, Manitoba includes in its law concern for discrimination in these categories:

(a) ancestry, including colour and perceived race;
(b) nationality or national origin;
(c) ethnic background or origin;
(d) religion or creed, or religious belief, religious association or religious activity;
(e) age;
(f) sex, including pregnancy, the possibility of pregnancy, or circumstances related to pregnancy;
(g) gender-determined characteristics or circumstances other than those included in clause (f);
(h) sexual orientation;
(i) marital or family status;
(j) source of income;
(k) political belief, political association or political activity;
(l) physical or mental disability or related characteristics or circumstances, including reliance on a dog guide or other animal assistant, a wheelchair, or any other remedial appliance or device.

Frequently, in the provinces that rely primarily on this approach, the word “dog” appears only in the definition section of the law. All provinces have a Human Rights Act, but the provinces using this approach to the exclusion of more specific laws for disabled persons, include Manitoba, New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, and Yukon.


So as you can see until Canada has a unified standard like the ADA things will remain up to the provinces to decide. It has taken a long time for mobility assisant dogs to be accepted. Autism support dogs are still not accepted and do not share all teh same rigths as a guide dog. Many of us are trying to change this. Canada needs to continue to expaned in its learnign and accepting of all service dogs. Untill then only Guide dog users have complete and full access and rights across Canada.

Here are some great links to other facilities that train service dogs. All are charities. None of them control the whether a service dog is a service dog. Each is different in it's criteria. But agian there is no law in Canada saying a service dog has to be a facility trained dog. Service dogs can be Owner trained.

National Service Dog Inc: http://www.nsd.on.ca/
Pacific Assistance Dogs http://www.padsdogs.org/
MIRA: http://www.mira.ca/
Western Guide and Assistance Dog Society: http://www.guidedog.ca/who_we_are.html
Lions Foundation of Canada Dogguides: http://www.dogguides.com/doghome.htm
Nicole