White Shepherds

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are funny same with you Jack. It is interesting how your posts are now both not about WS's but about me, my choice to breed, and my service dog. VERY INTERESTING. It is also interesting how this is turning into an attack strictly pointed at me instead of a discussion about WS's. And the link you gave to teh GSD forum is not a place I would suggest people go to learn about service dogs. If people want to learn about Service dogs they should visit a site strictly about servcie dogs. One of the best out there is

International Association of Assistance Dog Partners
http://www.iaadp.org

I have many other one if people are interested. It lists all the tasks of different service dogs, list legal issues, gives many many links to other information. This is where peole who are serious about learning about Service Dogs go. Not to a breed specific forum.

As for calling me a BYB that is in your little minds. I KNOW I am not. I KNOW I am doing this for the right reasons and doing this the right way. Whether you two like it or not. I am done trying to help you two learn. You two only want to attack and fight and insult. For me this discussion is over. I have stated the truth, provided proof and the people wanting to truely learn will see that. You on teh other hand just throw insults, attack, condem and provide NO proof to your statements about WS's.

So attack me some more, put down my service dog some more, call me a BYB some more. No one cares anymore. Even me. Took me a while to learn what kind of sad lives you people must be living to keep this going for a year but now instead of being upset with your constant attempts to make me look bad or make the WS look bad I only pitty you and pray that someday you can pick a new hobby that will truely help people. At least my dream(that will soon be a reality) will help people. Maybe someday you can both say the same.
Nicole

[mike001]

Nicole, to breed a shepherd is to breed the whole dog, not just something out of one's imagination. We are talking about working dogs, that goes along with breeding, or didn't you know that.
Don't forget you are in Canada, so the sites from the US don't really apply, they have their standards, we have ours. Just like they have their laws and Canada has theirs.
All we asked for were references of where your dog was trained, where it was certified, and discussed genetics. What is the real puzzle to me is how would one get along without a service dog while this dog was whelping, nursing pups and so forth. We have never heard of a service dog being bred, they are always altered before acceptance in a program.
All of these questions were simply questions, yet you call them attacks, that is what puts doubt in my mind.
You never have produced any proof or documentation, and I know you have not taken the trouble to study Fred Lanting on the whole sheperd dog
You have only posted some outdated links that are obsolete today.
And why cut down a forum on service dogs? People on the site seemed very knowledgeable to me and for the ordinairy person it would be a start to educate themselves. Unless they have changed drastically, I enjoyed the write ups immensely last year. I could go back and seek other info, they always provide useful links, or they used to. The Lion's Club of Canada have branches throughout Canada, so they will be able to answer any questions about service dogs as they promote and help all the training facilities.
When someone refuses to discuss what they are stating as proven, then to me it sounds more like someone who is just talking without knowing anything about breeding or service dogs, or the whole dog in general.
I have checked out a few sites that I found were from the US so wasn't really interested.
As for the Genetics about the working GSD like I said, Fred Lanting is a very good starting point. I'll ask again, did he ever breed WGSD's?
He breeds for the betterment of the breed I believe.
I find that reading your last post, you seem to be running away from us finding out the truth, so you accuse us of attacking you , insulting you etc., to me this is a sign of uncertainty and fear of us discovering something we shouldn't. No one is attacking or insulting anyone, we're all just interested in one thing....the working GSD as a whole dog and the standard set out by the parent clubs and the ckc and akc as to what is acceptable for a GSD.

[wolfsoul]

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

[jackfrost]

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

Haven't we been thru this before. Yeah, there is a need for service dogs, nobody really "needs" a schutzhund dog. BUT the reason the GSD and all its glory and multi uses and guard, SAR, drug, leader of the blind, capabilities is because the breeding stock was tested and tested and proven and proven before it could be used. THAT IS THE POINT. Schutzhund is a proving ground. When you have dogs that don't have a title in the pedigree for 5,6 or more generations and you have not proven your breeding stock either, what exactly does that show??

I wouldn't be worried about people rejecting your puppies you donate because they're from bite trained parents. That's rediculous. any lower drive puppies that have good temperments will not be turned away. You see testing and proving working stock has allowed us to have a breed that consistently produces dogs that can do anything. Take 10 litters and you'll find a good number of dogs suitable to do any job we need from those litters. That's what testing and proving our stock has done. From partol and military work, bot scent detection and leaders of the blind.

Her getting a title on her dog and proving it as a working dog would do a lot. She'd be proving her working stock. a dog from 30 years ago means nothing. She or anyone else making these claims of how WGSD's are healthier, have more intelligence and more drive could hold some water if she'd title her ONE dog, and others would do the same. They could show consistency in their litters, in their breeding stock, just like the GSD's have done. (and I'm not talking AKC one's that also have proven nothing, sure you get a few here and there that can do something, but not many)

You can compare belgians to GSD's I see them working and proving themselves all the time. I'd be happy to hear your comparisons, i'll give you mine. I have something to compare them too, cause i've seen them and people are proving their working stock, they aren't even in the same situation as the WGSD's where they make all claims and have no proof.

[mike001]

Wolfsoul, where we come from, the Humane society runs that program, so no big deal. Every town, city or province runs their programs accordingly. We are far from putting service dogs down, we are just saying that if you own just a pet and want to breed you should know all about the dog you are breeding beforehand.
You keep saying Therapy Dog, then you change to Service Dog. The two are as different as night and day, so I don't really know what you mean. Nicole said she was breeding for Service dogs, not Therapy dogs. and she has not mentioned doing therapy work with her dog at all. I think you are jumbling all the posts.
Your dog needs to be certified to be a therapy dog. she shies away from answering who certified her dog. She shies away from discussing Genetics. This is one of the most important aspects of breeding. Anyone can put two dogs together and have pups, that's what we are trying to show.
I gave a good source of information ....Fred Lanting, if you really want to educate yourself, read his sites. They are not the easiest thing to understand and it does make for long reading, but well worth it.
Why would I be putting Service dogs down? Or Therapy dogs? I have a therapy dog here. I wouldn't be afraid to post the date it was certified, etc.
By the way, the site on Pets and People do explain the requirements for a therapy dog, I was wondering if you bothered reading it?

[NicoleLJ]

Mike I think you need glasses. I have discussed genetics. In fact I even provided a link toteh White Shepherd genetics progect. Also I have told you when you asked me the first time. Sheena is not certified with a program because she is not program trained. Did you under stand that this time? There is NO law in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be program trained. NONE NANA Nothing. As for doing without her I won't be. I will be staying home when she is pregnant and has her pups. She still does all teh same work at home. We just don't leave the house. Which for someone like me is a vaction. I have answered all your questions OVer and OVER and OVER agian. You are the one that chooses to ignore the responses. Which is why I am sick of answering you two. You keep asking the same questions and we keep giving you answers and proof and you keep ignoring it. It has gotten boring. You sound like my two year old when he asks a question over and over agian. At least he has an excuse for not remebering. What is yours?

Wolfsoul let them have this thread. Tehy will never listen. no answer is good enough for them.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

You must be thinking of a different Pets and People -- the Pets and People I'm talking about is completely local -- it has not branched out into other areas. It was founded by Marjorie Rutherford and her groenendael. Yes I've read the requirements, I have the forms -- I will possibly go through the screeing with my Solo when he is old enough. Visa wouldn't pass as the screening is done at the vet's office and it's the one place she is not herself (she had parvo as a puppy and spent several weeks in intensive care -- been terrified of the place since ).

If you look at some of her old posts you'll see she says her dog is a service dog, and she isn't certfified -- all of the therapy dogs I know are not certified either. Like I said before, my dog's mother was a therapy dog with only her Canadian championship, and my other dog's grandfather with only his Companion Dog Excellent -- they did not need certifications

Edit: whoops, meant to say service dog.

I attached a couple pictures of my boy's grandfather, Kestevne's Phantom CDX, doing his therapy work.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul just so you know Sheena is a PSD Psychiatric Service Dog. She is not a threapy dog though she could do the job with ease. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Wolfsoul just so you know Sheena is a PSD Psychiatric Service Dog. She is not a threapy dog though she could do the job with ease. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nicole

Then PROVE IT, more words no substance, its a common thing with you isn't it? Prove your breeding stock. Talk is cheap and that's all you have. Good luck. You can say you've answered and given proof over and over again, apparently you believe yourself. Meanwhile the questions still get ignored and skirted with pity parties you like to throw for yourself. I"m still waiting for those links. How come I have a feeling i'll just get more words and baseless claims? Where's the emoticon for head banging on desk or wall

[mike001]

Wolfsoul you are still in the dark re aservice dog and a therapy dog.Go to Canines with a Cause. This is a program that is also in Ottawa, called CWAC. It might shed some light on what we are discussing. It describes the steps one has to take for obtaining a service dog. The matching, training, cost, certification etc
You might understand better what a service dog is. As for psd's they are not recognized in Canada unless assessed by a training team and the owner has medical references to uphold the need for one. Only a physician or psychiatrist is allowed to sign the necessary documents. As for the US I can't speak for their laws. But you will note in the CWAC that it states that an owner's pet dog is not used to train as a service dog. It also states that the dogs need at least basic obedience.
Nice to say, oh, my dog could do that real easy....but if you've never done it in the ring, then you really don't know if your dog has the courage to work under stressful conditions.
Did you bother to read Fred Lanting's sites? It doesn't sound like youdid or you would know what we are talking about when we say "GENETICS", and it's not old things from another era.

[jackfrost]

save your pity, i surely don't need it

wow, i can only hope the people that follow this thread can see the questions asked and the pity party you throw for yourself everytime you reply with zero answers.

I don't know why its so hard to follow that someone asks a question as to why GSD's are being compared to WGSD's and you've been doing it all along, suddenly we're picking on you.

I don't think anyone not proving their breeding stock should be breeding working dogs PERIOD. If you don't have titles, or have a certified service dog or any of that in your pedigrees, than you are nothing more than a BYB, if that criteria happens to fit you as well, which it apparently does, that really isn't my fault is it?

How exactly do you want me to prove that WGSD's aren't doing everything and more that GSD's are doing? Sure there are a few that are, but the vast majority aren't proving anything, again I don't have to prove a negative. You said you have contact with breeders that have all these police dogs, link them. You have contact with Schutzhund clubs that say they aren't rare and they compete more than we think and do very well or better than GSD's, well give me a link. Two links to the same dogs from 30 years ago doesn't cut it, sorry. That'd be like me showing you a map of the 1700's and saying look England rules most of the world. well yeah it did, a few hundred years ago. I guess that isn't a good analogy cause England actually did what i'm claiming. Very few white's ever have.

you can also keep your little mind comments to yourself. I find it rather funny that you haven't done any discussing yourself for quite a few posts other than hurl insults and try and make yourself feel mentally superior. Be careful that you aren't doing what you claim others are, its in poor taste.

My sad life isn't very sad, i hate to tell you i'm quite happy. As for keeping this going for a year??? time goes by a little quickly for you apparently as i've only been here for a month or two.