White Shepherds

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are starting to sound very familiar. She is a PROVEN service dog. She is a PSD. Just to give you some education(which I have a sneaking suspision I have given you before) Service dogs DO NOT have to have any titles. None Nana nothing. They DO NOT have to be trained by a facility. They can be owner trained. There is NO law in in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be certified or have titles or have to be trained by a facility. THAT IS A FACT.

So since Sheena is a PROVEN service dog she has a higher chance of producing service dogs. Is that a garentee that she will? Nope. Have I ever said she will produce service dogs and that all her puppies will be service dogs? NOPE never. All I ever said is that is what I am breeding for. So I find dogs with those qualities and HOPE that I will produce at least a few. That is how breeding works.

AS for obience titles and the like I have NEVER said I don't like them. In fact I state over and over agian that that titles are great to have. I just said they are not the be all and end all of whether a dog should be bred or not.

I am sorry you can not open your eyes and truely learn. You are the one who loses out on all this but staying in teh dark.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[borzoimom]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

Nicole- I have shared this before but not on this thread. My Zubin has a gift. Now both he and his sister Galina work with children with cancer at two hospitals. However- Zubin has a gift.. He has had it since day one- keeping in mind, all of these children have some form of cancer, but Zubin can tell which one is failing- and the joke of this is- it sometimes goes against the medical reports. We have had situations of a child being sent to a huge childrens hospital as failing in cancer recovery- Zubin acts a little like a goof ball- willing to play fetch with the child- wagging his tail slowly.. The child was discharge in two weeks from the new hospital with a " yes its in full remission" . Another child- was supposed to be discharged with only treatments- Zubin would not leave that child- he stood there with his head in his lap pressing gently- would not leave ( the story is on my website).. The child died that night when the next morning he was supposed to be discharged- ... How he knows- we have no clue- but of the 7 pups in this litter- 4 are now therapy dogs- not bred with that in mind- the parents are top show dogs- but 4 in this litter are Therapy dogs- and it comes natural to them... Borzois are supposed to be rather aloof and dignified etc- these guys are open- calmly friendly and bothered by NOTHING! ... And Zubin and Galina are flat out hams in the ring- Look at the judges face on my website under our dogs- and look at the judges face under Zubin- ....

[borzoimom]

And one more thing Nicole- I do believe they have gifts within them we can not understand. Like what yours does with your situation, Zubin is the reason I went to the doctor because he kept pressing his head into my lap and rested his head on me all the time- even sending instant messanges to people like "hjkl" as he rested his head on the table my lap top is at. I went to the doctor- scared he was detecting cancer- it wasnt- but it was serious. Its not cancer he is detecting as he works with those that have it- its a change in life whatever and he is trying to help- just like yours is doing..

[NicoleLJ]

Your dogs sound amazing. borzoimom. I always trust my dogs. No matter what I always trust them. They know things we don't.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

To not get into specifics- but Zubin's actions actually could have saved my life.. You let her do what she does- she knows.. They have insights we can not have- .. After so many years with shepherds- I have so many stories of my dogs, and those farmed out into line of duty etc even show- that it defies how they know. One night- I was laying down reading a book on the couch in my living room. All the dogs were in their crates but my one female- that loved to lay with me- SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE IN THE HOUSE THAT WAS NOT A Sch. Trained dog. Suddenly she started pacing- looking- then ran at the window- I yelled like I thought she had lost her mind- and was going to dive through it, when I heard something bang and crash on the front deck. I looked out the window in time to see two men running from the window and she was going BANANAS- set off the whole house- I grabbed the phone and called the police- and they got a chuckle to arrive at my house- with all the dogs crated- but I knew darn well- every single one of them- including her- would have gone over that 6 foot high fence.. The door knob had a screw driver stuck in it.. One of the accomindations I have from the San Franciso PD- one of my dogs- the dog had uh been in an arrest earlier in the week. This one night, the officer had a meeting at the office, and left the dog at home- they came to break into his house- with his wife and children in the house- took a bullet- but bite two of the men- cornering the other - all with only screams of commotion- not a single command. ... And the testimonies can continue..

[mike001]

Borzoid, it is a known fact that some dogs have an inborn sense for this, especially cancer and for seizures. No one can argue that fact. I have witnessed these dogs several times.
As for schH. I have trained 4 GSD's in that and I feel they are safer than your untrained dog. They do not decide for themselves to attack, they need a command or they do not pass. This is not to deny that some schH dogs are trained to detect danger and act on heir own.
As for self trained service dogs, I don't think I've ever heard of this, But I have a friend who works in service dog work for the Lion's Foundation and I can enquire about this. But if a dog is owner trained where would the test be passed? Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
Bottom line is, if a dog shows any sign of aggression, like growling, biting,raising hackles, showing teeth, it is an automatic failure, regardless of performance.
I think this is the point we are trying to make, these dogs have to be proven for access rights.
But again, I think Fred lanting's books and sites say more than any of us could and prove without a doubt what we are discussing.

[borzoimom]

[QUOTE=mike001]Borzoid, it is a known fact that some dogs have an inborn sense for this, especially cancer and for seizures. No one can argue that fact. I have witnessed these dogs several times.
As for schH. I have trained 4 GSD's in that and I feel they are safer than your untrained dog. "//quote=

I had 35 shepherds at one time- 17 Otch- etc in titles- Trained 4??? I did that in my first year---.. Your constant attack at Nicole has brought me out- I find your knowledge in shepherds far from anything you can document, nothing you have experienced, and soley for the reason your actions are strange... The more you talk- the more I discount you and experience- PUT DOWN A BOOK- AND PUT YOUR OWN PROOF IN YOUR own dogs- because its not there-...
***** AND I AM NOT borzoid- I AM BORZOIMOM!!**

[borzoimom]

And I will tell you something else mike'd-
HAVE YOU ever met Fred Lantings?? I HAVE! Have you ever worked with Fred Lantings?? I HAVE!! And he would be horrified at how you are twisting his words- you obviously have never worked with him, or even possible totally read/NOR UNDERSTOOD anything by him.. He states you breed for traits desired, but understanding the total working dog is capable of all sorts of work. Case in point- I had several litters that were out of show parents- top in the show world- litter of 9- 7 ( SEVEN) WERE natural Sch. dogs- one was totally show- and one was a pet by desire of the owner- want more examples???? I had another litter- supposed to be all Sch? police work dogs- everyone show-... Top obedience titles- but all show-... You fail to understand the total make up of the Shepherd, and seriously misunderstand the ability of a shepherd- farm dog, or police, guide dog or therapy, ... The shepherd fits it- and your narrow mindedness is why people do not allow the natural traits the dog of a all well rounded dog.. Maybe your dogs are shy at back firing cars- MINE NEVER WERE..

[mike001]

And I will tell you something else mike'd-
HAVE YOU ever met Fred Lantings?? I HAVE! Have you ever worked with Fred Lantings?? I HAVE!! And he would be horrified at how you are twisting his words- you obviously have never worked with him, or even possible totally read/NOR UNDERSTOOD anything by him.. He states you breed for traits desired, but understanding the total working dog is capable of all sorts of work.

You are very fortunate to have met Fred Lanting in person Borzoid, I have friends who know him personnally and we all understand his writtings and his work with Shepherds. What I find truly amazing is that you have trained so many shepherds and understand them so well, why is it that you would abandon all this for a sporting breed?
Have you ever known Fred Lanting to breed a WGSD? I didn't think so. I understand his views on genetics quite well, but it appears Nicole has never read anything he wrote from the things she posts.We are only pointing out the "here and now" world, not the way it was 50 yrs ago.



Case in point- I had several litters that were out of show parents- top in the show world- litter of 9- 7 ( SEVEN) WERE natural Sch. dogs- one was totally show- and one was a pet by desire of the owner- want more examples???? I had another litter- supposed to be all Sch? police work dogs- everyone show-... Top obedience titles- but all show-... You fail to understand the total make up of the Shepherd, and seriously misunderstand the ability of a shepherd- farm dog, or police, guide dog or therapy, ... The shepherd fits it- and your narrow mindedness is why people do not allow the natural traits the dog of a all well rounded dog.. Maybe your dogs are shy at back firing cars- MINE NEVER WERE..

Case in point......If I had a GSD who failed to protect the house when someone tried to break in, I would certainly be disappointed. An intelligent dog such as the GSD who doesn't defend loved ones is not worth much in my opinion. I have never owned a shy shepherd in my life and never would. All my dogs were well socialized and friendly. If any of my dogs had shown any sign of aggression, they would not have remained in my home. We tested all our dogs for gunshots,part of our training , so a car backfiring was no big deal. I never had a Shepherd bite, show teeth, raise hackles or hide behind me etc.

[wolfsoul]

Quote:
You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be.
This isn't the GSD -- this is the AWS. In your logic, breeding for the whole dog involves breeding for schutzhund?? What about the other breeds that weren't originally bred to be your opinion of the "whole dog?" They have to be schutzhund titled in order to be a complete dog too? AWSs are used mainly for therapy/service work. Where does schutzhund fall into that category? I can argue that the dog should be flying disc titled too. It's the same irrelevance.

Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
No it isn't -- the Pets and People Society has nothing to do with the Okanagan Humane Society. The humane society here is small and run out of volunteers' homes -- they do not have a facility like the SPCA and they do not have any affiliation with any of the clubs or societies in the Okanagan.

[jackfrost]

Quote:
You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be.
This isn't the GSD -- this is the AWS. In your logic, breeding for the whole dog involves breeding for schutzhund?? What about the other breeds that weren't originally bred to be your opinion of the "whole dog?" They have to be schutzhund titled in order to be a complete dog too? AWSs are used mainly for therapy/service work. Where does schutzhund fall into that category? I can argue that the dog should be flying disc titled too. It's the same irrelevance.

Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
No it isn't -- the Pets and People Society has nothing to do with the Okanagan Humane Society. The humane society here is small and run out of volunteers' homes -- they do not have a facility like the SPCA and they do not have any affiliation with any of the clubs or societies in the Okanagan.

I could care less about the other breeds. The GSD has a reputation. Did you miss that the past 100 times I"ve said it. They have one based on the breeding and testing practices they've followed for the past 100 years. WGSD's have done nothing to prove anything. Flying disc titled, its fun for the dog, but really doesn't test nerve strength courage or intelligence at all. A crazy neurotic mess of a dog would be better at catching flying discs than a well balanced shepherd.

Maybe you also missed Nicole's and others constant comparisons to the GSD, that is why they are being compared, i don't know how much more simply it could be spelled out.

Also when did this turn into nothing but SchH? There is HGH trials too, and those tests were used to develope the breed that is working and saving lives today. But we get the same thing back, excuses and titles mean nothing for what I do, but my dogs can do everything, I know-those arguements are weak, prove it.