White Shepherds

[borzoimom]

Quote:
quote borzoimom "the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC.. /



Quote jackfrost://"very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point."...'

So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..

[mike001]

Well now that was an interesting post from Nicole. She says she is breeding a"proven service dog", yet her so called service dog has no titles? Could you tell us what school you and your dog graduated from and why you said you didn't think your dog needed any titles or certificates? When you graduate with your dog, you have a certificate to prove it is a service dog. And you say you are not interested in working titles. That is what a GSD was born to do. You want us to believe you will automatically have service dog quality pups when the dam is not proven in anything? Shelter dogs are often taken in to be trained as service dogs and they do a great job. You are not interested in obedience, how does one expect a service dog to follow instuctions and commands without basic obedience. And what about tracking? What if the dog is in charge of an alzheimer's patient or an autisitc child and they wander away? How would the dog find his "charges" if he knew nothing of tracking?

A GSD is first and foremost a working dog in the true sense of the word. If your dog can't meet the requirements, it should not be bred. You skirt around the issue of your dog's titles or certificates, which to me points out that she has none.

What would happen if a guide dog were to lead a blind person and a car backfired and the dog freaked ? Or what if a dog accompanied a disabled person and met some unruly people and decided to growl or raise it's hackles?
These dogs would quickly be washed out of a program. That is why it is so important that service dogs experience all kinds of noises and distractions before entering a program.

If a dog has not been proven for steady drive and nerves, then it can't be considered as a true working GSD. The training a schH dog gets only proves his worthiness more, every GSD was born for this type of work. A GSD is nothing but a pet without proof of being able to work as it was bred to do.

As for police work, they do not accept WGSD's because they are too visible to go undetected. If you can show me one white proven GSD of today, not eons ago, I might tend to believe there might be one or two in the deep recesses of somewhere, but you can't even prove your own dog's worthiness.

The best proof I can give you is to send you to Fred Lanting's explanations of real GSD's. Knowing how intensive and complicated his readings are, I'm sure you won't want to dedicate the necessary time to it.
Or, there is also a great forum on service dogs that you could access for information, I think it's called "Our Community service dogs". I could ask for the name from a friend if you can't get into the site.

[borzoimom]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are starting to sound very familiar. She is a PROVEN service dog. She is a PSD. Just to give you some education(which I have a sneaking suspision I have given you before) Service dogs DO NOT have to have any titles. None Nana nothing. They DO NOT have to be trained by a facility. They can be owner trained. There is NO law in in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be certified or have titles or have to be trained by a facility. THAT IS A FACT.

So since Sheena is a PROVEN service dog she has a higher chance of producing service dogs. Is that a garentee that she will? Nope. Have I ever said she will produce service dogs and that all her puppies will be service dogs? NOPE never. All I ever said is that is what I am breeding for. So I find dogs with those qualities and HOPE that I will produce at least a few. That is how breeding works.

AS for obience titles and the like I have NEVER said I don't like them. In fact I state over and over agian that that titles are great to have. I just said they are not the be all and end all of whether a dog should be bred or not.

I am sorry you can not open your eyes and truely learn. You are the one who loses out on all this but staying in teh dark.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[borzoimom]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

.....

[jackfrost]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

you are so wrong. One my schH trained dogs go everywhere with me and don't get freaked by canes and silly acting people. They've been tested and can tell the difference of a threat and silly people. Second, and SChH trained dog wouldn't be a guide dog, it would be the tested dog, shown to have all the requisite parts of a GSD and used for breeding the guide dogs. SchH trained dogs think and act on their own a lot of time, they arne't robots, for 20 years experience, i'd have to say its more than lacking.

[jackfrost]

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..

quite an assumptions, so what have I said that has been untrue, you think in 20 years you would have learned a bit more.

[jackfrost]

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

I never said you had to be breeding for schutzhund. I said you need to be testing your breeding stock, I guess you missed the part about HGH. That is a long ways away from being "herding tested" and TT and CGC prove nothing. Test your breeding stock and prove something. Those who say titles are meaningless had nothing to do with the reputation the GSD has today. ITs the mentality of BYB's and puppy mills. I hope you enjoy the company you keep.

[jackfrost]

Quote:
So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

Wow, even after I specifically pointed out, with her own words how she constantly compares and puts WGSD's ahead of GSD's you still miss the point entirely. I said the GSD has a reputation, that reputation was built thru careful breeding and testing their breedings stock for the complete dog PERIOD. That is how the GSD became the service dog that it is. if you're going to compare the WGSD, which I used her own words, and I'm sure I could find more than a few other posters in this thread that have also, then you better be PROVING your dogs like the GSD has. The fact of the matter is they haven't proven anything, other than a handful of dogs over the past 30 years or longer. That's a long time.

as for the other working dogs, yes, i'm sure they could come up with tests to test their drive and temperment the same to keep the breeds the same without bull baiting and the like, but they aren't my breed I"m not going to get into what they should do. However if they were going to be claiming they can do everything the same or better than a GSD, you bet I'd be telling them to prove it to me. But I have seen far more pits being proven that WGSD's as well.