White Shepherds

[wolfsoul]

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

Where did I say CGC isn't requied for St John's ambulance? I don't know of their practises, all I know is that St John's Ambulance is not the only therapy organization and I've never heard of another organization that used it as a requirement rather than it's own screening process, like the organization my dog's mother went through, Pets and People.

I have a service dog, and yes, I do prefer to call her a therapy dog. When I call her a service dog I feel as though people look down on me as someone who "needs service." Makes me sound helpless. I'd rather she be my therapy dog, as that is what she is to me -- she calms and reassures me, and provides me with the mental therapy that I need.

[NicoleLJ]

I soooo know what you mean. When I have to explain about Sheena I hate the pitty look they give me. Also Wolfsould could you empty your in box I need to pm you somthing.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

I have two therapy dogs- and neither were required to have their CGC prior. Depends on where you live etc. Also a Therapy dog is different than Therapy dog International. I chose not to list my dogs in TDI because it puts my dogs on a national registry, and I am not willing to travel to other places, as they already go to two hospitals locally.

[mike001]

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.
ESA's are not recognized and have no access. But there is definitely a place for them in a person's home.
I don't know why you would think people give you pitying looks if you use a certified service dog, I see people using them and have yet to see anyone do this. Maybe you are self concious and imagine this.

Nicole, as far as giving you proof, if you were truly going to breed your dog, you would have read about infertility in White Shepherds. When you provide proof that is of this year or at least starting at the yr, 2000, I will send my proof. I have all those old relics on hand myself, they just don't hold a drop of water anymore. Today's breeders are educating themselves in the today world, not the past.

Since Boxing day is for friends and families, I think I will go and wait for my guests instead of wasting time on a useless debate.

[NicoleLJ]

Mike where is the proof they are infertile? You don't have any that is why you can't post any. White shepehrds are no more infertile then GSD's. You are funny. As for pittying looks. Anyone that has had a service dog knows what I mean. Not everyone gives them but some do. Like I said you make all these claims and provide nothing to back it up. I provide links, proof even a link to the WS genetics program. What have you provided?
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.

My dog not only "calms and reassures" me which can bring me down from a panic attack, but she also detects any signs of psychotic episodes and immediatly brings me home -- the last time I had a bad episode I jumped into the lake in the frezing winter. Psychological disabilities are just as crippling as physical ones. I am off my old medications now and have not needed her for a few months though I still take her out on any days that feel off to me, just incase.

[jackfrost]

the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..

very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point.

I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund?

You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be, its the breed test, it's what is used to test and prove breeding stock, it tests nerve, strength, temperment etc. Its the strict standards in breeding and testing that brought the GSD the reputation it has today, and should be preserved. To claim your "breed" can do everything a GSD can do and more??, then prove it.

The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

The original intent of the herding dog was one of athletic ability that could run and be agile enough to tend sheep, keep them in line etc, be courageous enough and have the strength to ward off a predatory attack, and have the energy and stamina to work the fields all day. Then at nigh it had to be stable enough and still protective enough to guard the home. At that time in history there were many guardian dogs and many herding dogs, but none that could really do it all. The guardian breeds too big and not athletic enough, and the other "herder" weren't strong enough mentally of physically to engage attackers. not long after the GSD was made famous those qualities were still desired, although the landscape of Germany and the need for herding was diminished, so Schutzhund was developed to ensure that those qualities were tested and maintained within the breed.

Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...

Here are some of Nicole's word's

White Shepherds can perform in and excel at AKC performance events like obedience, tracking, agility, flyball and herding trials. White Shepherds can be police dogs, bomb detection dogs, drug sniffing dogs, and Search and Rescue dogs just to list a few.

-Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it.

-White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.

-The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose.

Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts.

Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do.

Sounds like she, along with any other white GSD breeder I've seen always directly relates what their dogs do, to the reputations the GSD has built for itself. To that i've said it 1000 times, PROVE IT. There's a reason the GSD has its reputation, and people breeding WGSD's do none of it, where are the LSP, BSP, SchH, HGH winners and titles in those venues? If you're not testing or proving that the WGSD can do anything and everything etc except for a handful of dogs over the pas 30 years I suggest you get off the computer and get training some dogs.

[borzoimom]

Quote:
quote borzoimom "the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC.. /



Quote jackfrost://"very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point."...'

So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Quote:
So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

Wow, even after I specifically pointed out, with her own words how she constantly compares and puts WGSD's ahead of GSD's you still miss the point entirely. I said the GSD has a reputation, that reputation was built thru careful breeding and testing their breedings stock for the complete dog PERIOD. That is how the GSD became the service dog that it is. if you're going to compare the WGSD, which I used her own words, and I'm sure I could find more than a few other posters in this thread that have also, then you better be PROVING your dogs like the GSD has. The fact of the matter is they haven't proven anything, other than a handful of dogs over the past 30 years or longer. That's a long time.

as for the other working dogs, yes, i'm sure they could come up with tests to test their drive and temperment the same to keep the breeds the same without bull baiting and the like, but they aren't my breed I"m not going to get into what they should do. However if they were going to be claiming they can do everything the same or better than a GSD, you bet I'd be telling them to prove it to me. But I have seen far more pits being proven that WGSD's as well.