Ligers

[Suki Wingy]

It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs.

I agree with your whole post except the first sentance. Tigers in captivity are incredibly overpopulated. There are nore legally owned tigers in Texas than in all of India.

[My Peanuts]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I really don't think it;s better dead/extinct than in a cage. If those dolphins had been i captivity even if it were just doing sea worl shows then there would still be soe around and some hope of reintraduction IF down the road their envornment was recoveded and if not then at least they would not be totaly gone.

I don't think anyone is saying that animals shouldn't be in captivity, but there is a big difference between a zoo imitating an animal's natural habitat and a side show exhibit.

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

[Alasse]

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

Horses, dogs, cats etc were once non domesticated animals, meaning 'wild'

So its ok that humans domesticated these animals over hundreds of years...but humans should not attempt to domesticate any other ones...is that what you mean?

Why is it that big cats or so called 'wild' animals cannot over hundred of years be domesticated? IE Breed to coexist with humans

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Horses, dogs, cats etc were once non domesticated animals, meaning 'wild'

So its ok that humans domesticated these animals over hundreds of years...but humans should not attempt to domesticate any other ones...is that what you mean?

Why is it that big cats or so called 'wild' animals cannot over hundred of years be domesticated? IE Breed to coexist with humans

Well, domestic cats ARE essentially domesticated "big" cats. I think they are mostly closely related to African and European wild cats. And, it does take a lot of generations to make an entirely new species. Just like dogs are closely related to wolves, they are not wolves- they are another species. How many generations of intentional breeding this would need I have no idea.

You could never make a new species with the Liger because they are a crossbreed- and therefore sterile. If they found a way to breed a tiger/lion and the offspring was fertile this might be possible- but it would require some genetic engineering. The definition of a species is a group the can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. Lions and tigers are closely enough related that they can produce offspring, but they are not of the same species so the offspring is sterile. You cannot therefore breed a liger to a liger.

[TamanduaGirl]

there have been occasional cases of ligers that weren't steral but it's rare. Just like with mules there is a rare non sterile one but then they have to brred to a tiger lion or a horse or mule since you wouldn't be able to find another nonsterile hybrid, most likely.

It only takes about 40yrs of intensive selective breeding to get a domesticated species it takes more if you aren't so strict in your breeding practices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts

If you hybrid a domestic to a non-domestic it only take a few generations and after a certain number they aren't sterile any more, like with the small cat hybrids but with most of those it's usually just the male that's sterile as they are more closely related. And it's the same case as above they are non-domestic bred to domestic, then hybrid bred to domestic, hybrid to domestic till a generation that leaves them with all the desirable domestic traits but still looking like a non-domestic.

Mules haven't turned into their own species yet since no one has pushed to like they do with the hybrid cats but mules are still hugely popular.

If you think a Hybrid is wrong no matter if it's a hybrid breed dog or a hybrid exotic domestic species then there's nothing I can say but to those more open that might think a mule is okay but a liger isn't then it's worth thinking over a bit more.

[TamanduaGirl]

oh and meant this to be in the last post but a dog is 100% DNA the same as a wolf a dog and a wolf are essentially different breeds or you could call dogs a subspecies of wolf as sience now classifies them. There's as yet no genetic test to determine a wolf from a dog or hybrid of the two.

[TamanduaGirl]

I don't think anyone is saying that animals shouldn't be in captivity, but there is a big difference between a zoo imitating an animal's natural habitat and a side show exhibit.

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

Of course there's a difference but I don't see one automaticly being worse.

Zoo animals are more stressed often because they have those hands off policies and the animals aren't used to people and can't be handled for simple procedures and check ups. Most of the animals also go into smaller indoor pens at night. They don't live as if fully wild.

And I think I went into detail about why I don't think it's stressful just to be in a show or exhibit other than a zoo. Some may do it wrong and stress them but the USDA laws do mention how stressed an animal looks and that being a problem if it appears stressed and so a violation of the law.

As for wild dictionary definition
Occurring, growing, or living in a natural state
Yes undomesticated but they aren't wild. Tigers and lions aren't captured from the wild any more even they are bred in captivity. Even if an animal were to come from the wild after a bit of time and effort it would be tame and so no longer wild.

As for instincts even dogs have them. Horses have them. Hamsters still have them and as mentioned hamsters have been bred in captivity for a much shorter period than foxes. for an example of a double standard due to cuteness factor. Every species or even breed has it's own special instincts to work with. Forgetting that is what gets people in trouble even with dogs.

Dogs are the only animal bred to the point of domestication people call the standard and that being obedient and wanting lots of attention from their owner.

[Argranade]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

I'm talking about animals breed by humans, if they do it in the wild naturaly I realy could care less, but some humans think it's intresting to cross breed animals, for science or whatever other crap reasons they come up with.

There are some animals you can cross like pigeons, I realy don't know where breeds like pouters, fantails, russian tumblers all came from but if they where wild they actualy would cross breed un purpose.

Zebra's are actualy my 2nd favourite animal next to pigeons ...

[Twisterdog]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

A zebra is a naturally occurring species in the wild. Humans did not create zebras. A wild zebra is most certainly not the "same deal" as a liger in a cage somewhere.

[TamanduaGirl]

I agree with your whole post except the first sentance. Tigers in captivity are incredibly overpopulated. There are nore legally owned tigers in Texas than in all of India.

doesn't that just mean the wild tigers are under populated? If there aren't a bunch of them lacking for homes then the captive population isn't over populated but a wider diversity of animals focused on would be nice. and yes some wind up in sanctuaries but it's a smal percent and usualy either an illegaly owned one or one where it became illegal after they already had it.

[Suki Wingy]

doesn't that just mean the wild tigers are under populated? If there aren't a bunch of them lacking for homes then the captive population isn't over populated but a wider diversity of animals focused on would be nice. and yes some wind up in sanctuaries but it's a smal percent and usualy either an illegaly owned one or one where it became illegal after they already had it.

Well, it's to the point where some zoos are euthenizing them.

[TamanduaGirl]

I hadn't heard of that but i know they only want "pure breed" perfect cats in their programs. Zoos used to sell over stocked animals to private keepers but it's not considered politicly correct to do so any more so I could see it being possible but I'll need to look and see if there's any articles on that. I mean that stuff is all made public through the freedom of information act so groups can get a hold of their records from USDA so if they were euthanizing just because there was no other zoo to take them and still breeding that would be big news so I'm a bit doubtful right now. They make a big stink about every death at a zoo natural causes or not.