Ligers

[Argranade]

Cross breeding is wrong end of story, I don't hate the crossed animals but it's not right what humans are trying to do in this freaking earth, it's dumb & people still are not smart enough to stop this madness.

It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs.

No there not over populated there CROSS breed, that's the point.

Second issue circuses. They are not mean and inherently cruel. You're pet is not abused by being taught tricks or doing them in front of people, agility shows, dog shows. I've even seen llama agility! In fact if you don't train your dog and interact with it it's considered neglect. Really it's the same for exotics. They get enrichment by learning and doing tricks. Even zoo animals are usually taught to do some simple things like target. You may not call it a trick but there's no real difference. The animal is being taught to do something on command.

Most circuses use chains and electric shocks to control animals,

I went to a circuse in Toronto & the stupid man was using an electric poll at the poor elephants just so he could get them to do what he wanted, no matter how tame a lion is in a circuse it's still not right because these animals feel stress with all the flashing lights & screaming of kids .. I mean people should leave them in the wild .. I don't even like Zoo's anymore because I feel the animals should be free and not breed in captivaty.

These animals are dangerouse and if they show there natural anger to a human they will be killed for doing what only comes natural & I know its NOT fair, you have a exotic pet but it's not in stress & your not having flashing lights or strange people looking at it all day like in zoo's or circuses so there is a difference.

[Twisterdog]

There has been a stuffed Liger at the zoo in Salt Lake City, Utah since I was a very small child ... probably 35 years ago, that I remember. I think it was born at the zoo, and they stuffed it when it died. So, they are not a new thing, by any means.

As far as intentionally breeding a lion with a tiger .... WHY? Both lions and tigers are losing habitat in the wild, are victims of poachers, etc. I highly doubt if a modern zoo is going to take a "Liger", since it is not a natural species. I just fail to see what is to be gained by "making" a new crossbreed like this. Do we not have enough trouble in the world providing safety and space for natural species of big cats? There's no purpose to this whatsoever, except someone getting some publicity and making some money. If someone truly wants to benefit big cats, they should donate some time or money to saving the lives and habitat of naturally occuring predators in danger of extinction in the wild. Now that would be a much better hobby!

[#1Wolflover]

what alot of people don't know is that ligers tend to have more problems, hints the breeding of the lion and tiger, I wish I could find that article that says what complications ligers have. They are unhealthy animals I love all animals so don't get me wrong, ligers are cool but there breeders should be ashamed!

[TamanduaGirl]

Sorry know this fell off the main page but for the most have been away for a few days and just can't let it go as it was.

You saw one bad incident, which you reported them for right? cuz that's obvious abuse. I don't know about Toronto but there are laws against that here, and so all or almost all circuses abuse their animals. Or is it because someone told you so, you heard it on some other website.

That's the same as saying most pitbull owners fight their dogs and do drugs just because everyone says so. Performing and traveling and being in a circus is not abuse. Abuse is abuse electric shock is abuse but then that would also have to include all dog owners who use shock collars and cattle owners who use cattle prods, IMO, you can't say it's abuse for one and not another if it's on the same level and not amped up voltage like cattle prodding a chihuahua.

And as I said before I don't see that chains are any worse than any other sort of leash or tether both would be wrong left on ALL the time but they are freed for parts of the day for exercise and the performance, bath time ect. I don't see it as abuse to use a chain as a leash/tether especial for a big animal. They do have care standards and laws (in the US) they have to follow just like anyone else who exhibits their animals to the public. and abuse isn't allowed, they can't withhold food for training, beat them ect. Sometimes laws need strengthand, like or state laws doesn't make it illegal for someone to come on your land and kill your animal! You could probably prosecute them for tresspassing and property damage(pet being preperty) but not animal abuse unless the death was drawn out so abuse for not making it quick. Then you need to try and change that and they are localy. You can write letters to support such proposed legislation then.

Are some abused probably does still happen just like show horse people sometimes sore their horses but that doesn't mean all show horse people are abusing their horses in that way. The only thing to do is to punish those that abuse their animals not stop circuses or horse shows to try and prevent abuse. Abusive people will continue to do so as long as owning animals is allowed. Laws can not and do not prevent crimes they are only meant to punish the offenders and at best act as a deterrent.

"leave them in the wild" hmm okay but what wild? There are definate good places like san diego wild animal park, they have acres to roam. They did get a rare import of elephants some years back because the preserve was either send them away or kill them because they didn't have enough room. Was it better they die?

I really don't think it;s better dead/extinct than in a cage. If those dolphins had been i captivity even if it were just doing sea worl shows then there would still be soe around and some hope of reintraduction IF down the road their envornment was recoveded and if not then at least they would not be totaly gone.

I worked with traveling animals on exhibit they aren't stressed by what they are used too. We had deer and wallabies. Wallabies being especialy known for stress and jumpiness. Ours weren't even bottle raised we let mom raise them going about her normal daily life of travel ect. The joeys grew up tame as any bottle baby. Loud music big crows and yes flashing lights from cameras if nothing else never bothered them.

Had a lady come in one day look at one of the wallabies standing there and start sreaming abuse! It was terrified! The other was just laying there but this was was scared stiff. I checked said it was fine she ranted then eventualy left saying she'd turn us in. That wallaby just lay down and took a nap once she shut up and left. HA. a stressed scared wallaby does not just stand there. Running around doesn't automatically mean stress either, like bunnies and kitties they sometimes just need a mad dash, hop around to stretch their muscles. Really the only way to know for sure on things like that is to know the animals. The point though being they are fine with what they are used to and raised with. They don't care if people look at them all day, they are not self conscious like people would be. The exotics did better than the domestics with the whole thing. The Deer missed it when on the ranch. Go into their space and the whole herd comes running for attention.

As for dangerous sure but so are big dogs, horses, cows ect. More people are killed by horses each year than big cats. More people are killed by herbivores than carnivores. Every animal posses a risk. People working with them know this and except it. It they mess up and something happens there are laws in place to deal with it. It almost never happens that an exotic escapes and kills some one if there is an incident it is usually to a keeper and secondly to a someone who chose to be there even if it was by buying a ticket.

In short SSL (species specific legislation) is just as bad as BSL. Your welcome to your openion and it certainly wont change if you think it's moraly wrong but the problem is your openion is becoming laws all over. Laws should not be moral based. Everyone has different morals. Some cultures think it;s moraly wrong for a woman to be seen in public, hence the burka. Some think it;s moraly wrong to have pets and it's been out lawed to sell dogs in some countries because it's moraly wrong and to American. So who's morals should be law? Laws should be based on harm not morals. If someone harms an animal it's abuse and a crime it's not harmful to travel with animals or have people see them other than family.

If you really want to help. Support enforcement of abuse laws. Voluntarily pay more to envorcement agencies so they might be able to hire more people. Help push through more funding(taxes). Push through tougher laws on abuse if need be. But passing laws to say no one should have them or even just those people(circuses) can't because some are abused is exactly the same as saying pit bulls should be banned because some fight, abuse, or neglect them, and both are just as wrong.

[wolflady]

A Liger is pretty much my favorite animal...with preferred skills in majic.

LOL LOL Just what I was thinking!

That's aaaaawesssome *snicker*

[Suki Wingy]

It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs.

I agree with your whole post except the first sentance. Tigers in captivity are incredibly overpopulated. There are nore legally owned tigers in Texas than in all of India.

[My Peanuts]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I really don't think it;s better dead/extinct than in a cage. If those dolphins had been i captivity even if it were just doing sea worl shows then there would still be soe around and some hope of reintraduction IF down the road their envornment was recoveded and if not then at least they would not be totaly gone.

I don't think anyone is saying that animals shouldn't be in captivity, but there is a big difference between a zoo imitating an animal's natural habitat and a side show exhibit.

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

[Argranade]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

I'm talking about animals breed by humans, if they do it in the wild naturaly I realy could care less, but some humans think it's intresting to cross breed animals, for science or whatever other crap reasons they come up with.

There are some animals you can cross like pigeons, I realy don't know where breeds like pouters, fantails, russian tumblers all came from but if they where wild they actualy would cross breed un purpose.

Zebra's are actualy my 2nd favourite animal next to pigeons ...

[Twisterdog]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

A zebra is a naturally occurring species in the wild. Humans did not create zebras. A wild zebra is most certainly not the "same deal" as a liger in a cage somewhere.

[Alasse]

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

Horses, dogs, cats etc were once non domesticated animals, meaning 'wild'

So its ok that humans domesticated these animals over hundreds of years...but humans should not attempt to domesticate any other ones...is that what you mean?

Why is it that big cats or so called 'wild' animals cannot over hundred of years be domesticated? IE Breed to coexist with humans

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Horses, dogs, cats etc were once non domesticated animals, meaning 'wild'

So its ok that humans domesticated these animals over hundreds of years...but humans should not attempt to domesticate any other ones...is that what you mean?

Why is it that big cats or so called 'wild' animals cannot over hundred of years be domesticated? IE Breed to coexist with humans

Well, domestic cats ARE essentially domesticated "big" cats. I think they are mostly closely related to African and European wild cats. And, it does take a lot of generations to make an entirely new species. Just like dogs are closely related to wolves, they are not wolves- they are another species. How many generations of intentional breeding this would need I have no idea.

You could never make a new species with the Liger because they are a crossbreed- and therefore sterile. If they found a way to breed a tiger/lion and the offspring was fertile this might be possible- but it would require some genetic engineering. The definition of a species is a group the can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. Lions and tigers are closely enough related that they can produce offspring, but they are not of the same species so the offspring is sterile. You cannot therefore breed a liger to a liger.

[TamanduaGirl]

I agree with your whole post except the first sentance. Tigers in captivity are incredibly overpopulated. There are nore legally owned tigers in Texas than in all of India.

doesn't that just mean the wild tigers are under populated? If there aren't a bunch of them lacking for homes then the captive population isn't over populated but a wider diversity of animals focused on would be nice. and yes some wind up in sanctuaries but it's a smal percent and usualy either an illegaly owned one or one where it became illegal after they already had it.

[TamanduaGirl]

I don't think anyone is saying that animals shouldn't be in captivity, but there is a big difference between a zoo imitating an animal's natural habitat and a side show exhibit.

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

Of course there's a difference but I don't see one automaticly being worse.

Zoo animals are more stressed often because they have those hands off policies and the animals aren't used to people and can't be handled for simple procedures and check ups. Most of the animals also go into smaller indoor pens at night. They don't live as if fully wild.

And I think I went into detail about why I don't think it's stressful just to be in a show or exhibit other than a zoo. Some may do it wrong and stress them but the USDA laws do mention how stressed an animal looks and that being a problem if it appears stressed and so a violation of the law.

As for wild dictionary definition
Occurring, growing, or living in a natural state
Yes undomesticated but they aren't wild. Tigers and lions aren't captured from the wild any more even they are bred in captivity. Even if an animal were to come from the wild after a bit of time and effort it would be tame and so no longer wild.

As for instincts even dogs have them. Horses have them. Hamsters still have them and as mentioned hamsters have been bred in captivity for a much shorter period than foxes. for an example of a double standard due to cuteness factor. Every species or even breed has it's own special instincts to work with. Forgetting that is what gets people in trouble even with dogs.

Dogs are the only animal bred to the point of domestication people call the standard and that being obedient and wanting lots of attention from their owner.

[TamanduaGirl]

there have been occasional cases of ligers that weren't steral but it's rare. Just like with mules there is a rare non sterile one but then they have to brred to a tiger lion or a horse or mule since you wouldn't be able to find another nonsterile hybrid, most likely.

It only takes about 40yrs of intensive selective breeding to get a domesticated species it takes more if you aren't so strict in your breeding practices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts

If you hybrid a domestic to a non-domestic it only take a few generations and after a certain number they aren't sterile any more, like with the small cat hybrids but with most of those it's usually just the male that's sterile as they are more closely related. And it's the same case as above they are non-domestic bred to domestic, then hybrid bred to domestic, hybrid to domestic till a generation that leaves them with all the desirable domestic traits but still looking like a non-domestic.

Mules haven't turned into their own species yet since no one has pushed to like they do with the hybrid cats but mules are still hugely popular.

If you think a Hybrid is wrong no matter if it's a hybrid breed dog or a hybrid exotic domestic species then there's nothing I can say but to those more open that might think a mule is okay but a liger isn't then it's worth thinking over a bit more.