Ligers

[borzoimom]

These road side shows, or traveling zoos seldom provide a healthy environment. More the road side places, or worse- the people that buy a wild animal as a pet. Not enough knowledge of proper diet or care. I have seen so many shows with this same message. And I fail to see how mixed two different species has anything to do with conservation. This is a man made situation- ... The only other cross species that I know can occur is a bobcat and a domestic cat. I have seen the kittens as this hit our local news and they had them pictures in the paper.

[BitsyNaceyDog]

The only other cross species that I know can occur is a bobcat and a domestic cat.

Horses and zebras can crossbreed too. There are also mules (cross between a donkey and a horse), which someone already mentioned. I'm sure there are others, but those are all I know of (or at least can remember at the moment).

[TamanduaGirl]

or worse- the people that buy a wild animal as a pet.

Well that happens to be me, and my Tamandua is very healthy and happy, thank you very much. It's also tons of my friends who have all manner of critters big and small who are also happy and healthy beings.

It's also impossible to have a "wild" animal as a pet. A wild animal is just that living in the wild. they are non-domesticated, exotic, and or tame but not wild. Most exotics are born and bred in captivity for many generations. Hamsters for example are exotic and have been bred as pets in the US not nearly as long as say fennec foxes have been.

As far as most owners and "roadside zoos" taking poor care of their animals, where do you get that? Where are the statistics and the study that generated them? Bad cases make the news good cases don't and it skews the public image. USDA regulates all mammal exhibition to the public. By Usda definition San Diego wild animal park is a roadside zoo. any stationary animal exhibit is. It's not like "puppy mill" where it automatically means something bad.

Most have standard conditions or better since they have to keep usda standards. I fail to see how a private owner or a smaller business than a zoo is automatically a bad owner. How are they worse? They tend to be more hands on and interactive with their animals. AZA Zoo's mostly have hands off policies now and the animals actually suffer for that. Having to be sedated for simple procedures because they try to keep them "wild" where as one kept more hands on is used to being handled and is less likely to need sedation for simple things and so avoid the risks and extra stress.

The only difference between an AZA zoo and any other is a slip of paid for paper. AZA is not a government agency. It's best classed as a guild like the screen actors guild. Big AZA zoos have special problems of their own. You have the zoo vet, nutritionist, keeper, and the money guy all arguing over what is best. Improvements are hard to make because you need all to agree. The keepers who work closest with the animals rarely get listened to. I know this from talking with keepers.

For the record a bobcat and domestic cat cross is impossible! There has never been a proven case. Not a single proven case with DNA. That would be easy if it were true. There's actually tons of hybrid cats but a bobcat/domestic is not one of them. A Pixiebob is just a nice looking bobtailed domestic.

[Argranade]

Cross breeding is wrong end of story, I don't hate the crossed animals but it's not right what humans are trying to do in this freaking earth, it's dumb & people still are not smart enough to stop this madness.

It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs.

No there not over populated there CROSS breed, that's the point.

Second issue circuses. They are not mean and inherently cruel. You're pet is not abused by being taught tricks or doing them in front of people, agility shows, dog shows. I've even seen llama agility! In fact if you don't train your dog and interact with it it's considered neglect. Really it's the same for exotics. They get enrichment by learning and doing tricks. Even zoo animals are usually taught to do some simple things like target. You may not call it a trick but there's no real difference. The animal is being taught to do something on command.

Most circuses use chains and electric shocks to control animals,

I went to a circuse in Toronto & the stupid man was using an electric poll at the poor elephants just so he could get them to do what he wanted, no matter how tame a lion is in a circuse it's still not right because these animals feel stress with all the flashing lights & screaming of kids .. I mean people should leave them in the wild .. I don't even like Zoo's anymore because I feel the animals should be free and not breed in captivaty.

These animals are dangerouse and if they show there natural anger to a human they will be killed for doing what only comes natural & I know its NOT fair, you have a exotic pet but it's not in stress & your not having flashing lights or strange people looking at it all day like in zoo's or circuses so there is a difference.

[Twisterdog]

There has been a stuffed Liger at the zoo in Salt Lake City, Utah since I was a very small child ... probably 35 years ago, that I remember. I think it was born at the zoo, and they stuffed it when it died. So, they are not a new thing, by any means.

As far as intentionally breeding a lion with a tiger .... WHY? Both lions and tigers are losing habitat in the wild, are victims of poachers, etc. I highly doubt if a modern zoo is going to take a "Liger", since it is not a natural species. I just fail to see what is to be gained by "making" a new crossbreed like this. Do we not have enough trouble in the world providing safety and space for natural species of big cats? There's no purpose to this whatsoever, except someone getting some publicity and making some money. If someone truly wants to benefit big cats, they should donate some time or money to saving the lives and habitat of naturally occuring predators in danger of extinction in the wild. Now that would be a much better hobby!

[TamanduaGirl]

Sorry know this fell off the main page but for the most have been away for a few days and just can't let it go as it was.

You saw one bad incident, which you reported them for right? cuz that's obvious abuse. I don't know about Toronto but there are laws against that here, and so all or almost all circuses abuse their animals. Or is it because someone told you so, you heard it on some other website.

That's the same as saying most pitbull owners fight their dogs and do drugs just because everyone says so. Performing and traveling and being in a circus is not abuse. Abuse is abuse electric shock is abuse but then that would also have to include all dog owners who use shock collars and cattle owners who use cattle prods, IMO, you can't say it's abuse for one and not another if it's on the same level and not amped up voltage like cattle prodding a chihuahua.

And as I said before I don't see that chains are any worse than any other sort of leash or tether both would be wrong left on ALL the time but they are freed for parts of the day for exercise and the performance, bath time ect. I don't see it as abuse to use a chain as a leash/tether especial for a big animal. They do have care standards and laws (in the US) they have to follow just like anyone else who exhibits their animals to the public. and abuse isn't allowed, they can't withhold food for training, beat them ect. Sometimes laws need strengthand, like or state laws doesn't make it illegal for someone to come on your land and kill your animal! You could probably prosecute them for tresspassing and property damage(pet being preperty) but not animal abuse unless the death was drawn out so abuse for not making it quick. Then you need to try and change that and they are localy. You can write letters to support such proposed legislation then.

Are some abused probably does still happen just like show horse people sometimes sore their horses but that doesn't mean all show horse people are abusing their horses in that way. The only thing to do is to punish those that abuse their animals not stop circuses or horse shows to try and prevent abuse. Abusive people will continue to do so as long as owning animals is allowed. Laws can not and do not prevent crimes they are only meant to punish the offenders and at best act as a deterrent.

"leave them in the wild" hmm okay but what wild? There are definate good places like san diego wild animal park, they have acres to roam. They did get a rare import of elephants some years back because the preserve was either send them away or kill them because they didn't have enough room. Was it better they die?

I really don't think it;s better dead/extinct than in a cage. If those dolphins had been i captivity even if it were just doing sea worl shows then there would still be soe around and some hope of reintraduction IF down the road their envornment was recoveded and if not then at least they would not be totaly gone.

I worked with traveling animals on exhibit they aren't stressed by what they are used too. We had deer and wallabies. Wallabies being especialy known for stress and jumpiness. Ours weren't even bottle raised we let mom raise them going about her normal daily life of travel ect. The joeys grew up tame as any bottle baby. Loud music big crows and yes flashing lights from cameras if nothing else never bothered them.

Had a lady come in one day look at one of the wallabies standing there and start sreaming abuse! It was terrified! The other was just laying there but this was was scared stiff. I checked said it was fine she ranted then eventualy left saying she'd turn us in. That wallaby just lay down and took a nap once she shut up and left. HA. a stressed scared wallaby does not just stand there. Running around doesn't automatically mean stress either, like bunnies and kitties they sometimes just need a mad dash, hop around to stretch their muscles. Really the only way to know for sure on things like that is to know the animals. The point though being they are fine with what they are used to and raised with. They don't care if people look at them all day, they are not self conscious like people would be. The exotics did better than the domestics with the whole thing. The Deer missed it when on the ranch. Go into their space and the whole herd comes running for attention.

As for dangerous sure but so are big dogs, horses, cows ect. More people are killed by horses each year than big cats. More people are killed by herbivores than carnivores. Every animal posses a risk. People working with them know this and except it. It they mess up and something happens there are laws in place to deal with it. It almost never happens that an exotic escapes and kills some one if there is an incident it is usually to a keeper and secondly to a someone who chose to be there even if it was by buying a ticket.

In short SSL (species specific legislation) is just as bad as BSL. Your welcome to your openion and it certainly wont change if you think it's moraly wrong but the problem is your openion is becoming laws all over. Laws should not be moral based. Everyone has different morals. Some cultures think it;s moraly wrong for a woman to be seen in public, hence the burka. Some think it;s moraly wrong to have pets and it's been out lawed to sell dogs in some countries because it's moraly wrong and to American. So who's morals should be law? Laws should be based on harm not morals. If someone harms an animal it's abuse and a crime it's not harmful to travel with animals or have people see them other than family.

If you really want to help. Support enforcement of abuse laws. Voluntarily pay more to envorcement agencies so they might be able to hire more people. Help push through more funding(taxes). Push through tougher laws on abuse if need be. But passing laws to say no one should have them or even just those people(circuses) can't because some are abused is exactly the same as saying pit bulls should be banned because some fight, abuse, or neglect them, and both are just as wrong.

[#1Wolflover]

what alot of people don't know is that ligers tend to have more problems, hints the breeding of the lion and tiger, I wish I could find that article that says what complications ligers have. They are unhealthy animals I love all animals so don't get me wrong, ligers are cool but there breeders should be ashamed!