White Shepherds

[borzoimom]

Mike001-
The German Shepherd in the Us does have a longer back and more angulation. Also in most breeds in the US, a female is permitted to be longer in the back. Its funny you mentioned infertility in Germany, as the US breeders believe the shorter backed German dogs- this is the source of the problem- longer back, more room for puppies.. Wives tail or not- I am not sure, but its long been the accepted standard in the breed here, and accepted more among the females especially.
By US standards, Nicole has a beautiful example of the breed, even if it is not a recognized color yet. When the German Shepherd was admitted into the AKC, varieties of a breed were not as widly accepted, and seldom named seperate breeds. Now that practice is pretty widly done- with varieties based on colors seperated as such into seperate breeds. The most obvious example of this is the Cocker Spaniel. ( Black, particolor, ASCOB - any solid color other than black..) or even the White Bull Terrier, and the Colored Bull terrier. Other than color- the standard reads the same.
With the white shepherd- there is just as much a loyal following, although not accepted yet, its coming into reality of being accepted at some point. The actual debate is not whether to accept, but whether it will be a variety- alias seperate breed, or just accepted in as a recognized color. When the politicians in the dog world make up their minds, I sure their acceptance will be coming.
I do however, find it funny the AKC changed the Russian Wolfhound to a Borzoi, because of relationships with Russia at the time and since then. However- we now accept the Black Russian Terrier. There has been a fight since day one in this to restore the name of the Borzoi back to the Russian Wolfhound.

[mike001]

Borzoid, I really don't know much about the american show lines, we were dealing mostly with the german lines. But I did notice the difference in the pictures. The shepherds don't have to be stretched out as much as the white dogs to be stacked, it just looks more natural. I would be more concerned about the fertility issues since all our german friends do not favour the whites because of health issues. I'm still into some different sites studying genetics, most of the sites so far say white in shepherds is a recessive colour??? I haven't met any white shepherd breeders since whites are generally frowned upon . Why would you want to own a dog that was not accepted by the AKC in the first place?

[borzoimom]

Borzoid, I really don't know much about the american show lines, we were dealing mostly with the german lines. But I did notice the difference in the pictures. The shepherds don't have to be stretched out as much as the white dogs to be stacked, it just looks more natural. I would be more concerned about the fertility issues since all our german friends do not favour the whites because of health issues. I'm still into some different sites studying genetics, most of the sites so far say white in shepherds is a recessive colour??? I haven't met any white shepherd breeders since whites are generally frowned upon . Why would you want to own a dog that was not accepted by the AKC in the first place?

The AKC recognition or lack there of does not make a breed- perfect example is the Leonbergers. Old breed- started many others, but has yet to be recognized here. Border collies- one of the oldest in some form not accepted until a few years back- does that mean our acknowledgment from the AKC makes a breed??? NO- BY DEFINITION- they can not make recognized without generations of traceable dogs, and a established standard. That means the breed was already there. Being allowed to show in AKC shows only states we have accepted a breed into a group etc to compete.. Even the belgiums are divided differently in titles, seperated in coat type and color but called another breed by other National Kennel Clubs.
Meanwhile- the rare breed clubs continue to have their own specialties. Championships and titles are awarded as the breed continues. And our acknowledgement does not make the breed go "POOF" INSTANT BREED- the breed already existed. If you look- you will see some of the later breeds admitted are actually very OLD ( !!!!) BREEDS.. Our admission doesnt mean the breed started then- just when it was acknowledged into the AKC..

[wolfsoul]

I agree with borzoimom -- AKC is not the endall to breeds. There are thousands of breeds out there not registered with AKC -- white shepherds ARE registered with AKC, but as a GSD, not an AWS, and they can not be shown under AKC. Some other registries, such as UKC, do allow them to show as a seperate breed.

There is no difference in health problems -- the white in GSDs is a masking gene -- meaning that underneath the white it is still a black and tan, sable, black, bi-colour, etc -- it does not have the health problems associated with many other white "genes," such as homozygous "double" merling or albinism/partial albinism. It is a big myth that white shepherds have health problems.

[mike001]

Well, I have been doing some research as mentioned, and have contacted GSD breeders. Here is what I have learned from the most reputable breeders and some info that they mailed.
White Shepherds should not be bred, they carry too many genetic faults. To breed a white you must go back several generations and have proof that all the past dogs have tested negative for MEGAE-PRAA...you have to have several generations that prove negative for RTM. Most breeders of whites don't spend the money for these tests.
Also, problems such as hemophilia, rear dew claws, and heart problems are very prevalent due to the very small gene pool.
Thyroid and cardiac tests are also important but most breeders ignore this.
We are supposed to be bettering the breed, white shepherds do not do this.
Seems that is the reason for seperation.

[borzoimom]

I hate to tell you this, but all the problems you mentioned on in any shepherd in potential. As as matter of fact, the whites are LESS likely to have hip dysplasia- a genetic condition that runs rampant in the other colors! Cardio myophathy, spinal myophy etc are all present in the "colored" shepherds- unusual in the whites...

[jackfrost]

HD does not run rampant, there are many other breeds ahead of GSD's in that catagory about 40 of them or so and I don't think any other breed is as highly tested I think maybe Retrievers have the same number or so tested thru OFA, the rest aren't even close. As for breakdowns of White shepherds VS. GSD's, I have yet to see that stat. Plus you'd have a tough time convincing me that a color selected against since the very beginning of the breed and only bred by people breeding outside the standard for COLOR ONLY has a healthier animal. Sorry, but argue all you want, common sense just says it isn't so.

What's so hard to understand. They bred white's to white's to get white's. a very small gene pool. Those that are breeding "colored" GSD's to whites and still getting white's are using ones that have known white's in their pedigree. The top GSD's are not being studded out or using their brood bitches to breed to white dogs to improve them. It's not happening. If you love your dogs fine, but come back to reality please.

I myself have been involved in working dogs only a short time compared to a lot of people. I am a student of the breed and it's history. I have regular contact with people that have been involved in the working and training working dogs for longer than I've been alive and they nor I have ever seen a white shepherds doing the things GSDs are. Many people i know that have been in this stuff over 40 years have seen or heard of maybe one or two ever. I liken it to "designer dog " websites, they're above normal intelligence, they don't shed, they love every one, their best of every world.