White Shepherds

[borzoimom]

I didnt understand how this applied either. I had a sable shepherd bred to a black and tan that produced a white- how??? Who knows.. There must have a white factor in the lines.. A white shepherd has none of the characterists of another white dog- they have dark pigment on the mouth, nose, and eyes and paws.. its not the same thing..

[mike001]

I have been reading all the posts here and I still don't understand . What is a PSD if not a police dog? And why is someone breeding white sheperds since they have so many health problems and temperament problems? How come breeding them is accepted? Excuse all the questions, but being new here I am a little confused with all the posts.

[Ceph]

Its because they dont really have all those problems that the urban myths say they do, which would sort of be the clear answer. You'll find people that love them, like many of the people on this thread, and then you will find people that believe they are inferior....if you read all the way back from the beginning you will see the of the arguments for that....they're pretty much all there (the for and against arguments)

I have been doing some reading up on the Berger Blanc Suisse website, and I am amazed what they do with those dogs...they are probably some of the most genetically maintained and sound dogs on the face of the planet....(not that I would expect anything less of the swiss...everythign they do has to be just right.)

If you want information on that, google berger blanc suisse and then click on the translated version of the swiss berger blanc suisse website....it should be something along the lines of www.bergerblancsuisse.ch

[mike001]

I did google that site those dogs are mostly in Europe from what I read. I thought they weren't accepted in America? I phoned a friend who breeds german shepherds and she was saying that a lot of the studs were infertile and the females had trouble going into whelp because of their genetics??? I guess I'm going to have to do more research,most of the posts I've read have differing opinions and I would be interested in finding out more. I help my friend a lot at dog shows, but have never seen a white shepherd there. I did look at the picture from the first poster but that dog doesn't really look like the shepherds I'm used to seeing at the shows. The one thing I did notice is that the back was way too long compared to other german shepherds. The whole structure was different, like the tail is set too high or something, and the face doesn't have the same expression. I'm not a judge though, just going from what I see at shows, mostly obedience competitions.

[SemaviLady]

SemaviLady - I am totally lost as by what you posted. The white Gene in GSD's is a masking gene not an albino gene.

The information on the link at the GSD site is a bit outdated. It is theoretical with regard to a proposed 'cd' gene. It has not proven to exist thus far and so far, it appears that it will not be.

I am talking about scientific studies on *molecular genetics*. Molecular genetics supercedes theoretical classical genetics. The latter provides behavioral details for how the genes interact to create different coat colors. We learn how breeding one color to another may mask or otherwise affect or not, another color. Molecular genetics gives the GPS (if you will) of the location of the alleles involved.

If you do have information that pinpoints the location of the 'cd' gene as it involves tyrosinase, please share the share the reference source. Other loci affected the chinchilla gene 'C' (the GSD site calls it the 'color' gene) in dogs have been located, but so far, the 'cd' gene is a bogus one. Willis wrote about the 'cd' theory before we had developed the handle that we do on genome studies.

Behaviorally, the 'e/e' or extension gene as understood in current molecular studies on dog color works very well. Dr Schmutz is directly involved in the studies at a molecular level of dog color genetics. Again her page on 'white' in dogs is located here under the block of information for "White Coat with Pigmented Eyelids"
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/white.html

Loved your posting, btw. Take care.

[mike001]

Semavi---I was fascinated by your post, but was at a total loss. I think I will have to take down all your info and do a bit of studying since all this business of white shepherds is so involved. It's just that from the picture of the white shepherd the poster showed it seemed overly long and the structure doesn't really fit the standard that i know. Everyone always said that you should always breed to improve the breed. I just didn't understand a breeding with white shepherds I guess. off to do my studying. Thanks for all the info.

[SemaviLady]

My impression on the GSD and the white color issue in that breed, is that the history of the breed involves its war dog history and other uses that were promoted by von Stephanitz in order to ensure the breed's development and survival. A dog that could do it all (and truly, is a breed that does).

Out of that would come prejudice over different physical attributes -- and depending on one's point of reference during the formation period, the reasons could be realistic or made to sound mysteriously complicated to the point of urban legend. ...and thus it is for 'white color' in GSDs.

Some traits were easier to control than others. A rough coat, poor earset or white color were among the visible things that were not favored. Color as we know, is always an easy focus point.

Try to be stealthy on enemy territory while using white wardogs or flashily marked ones. Try to secure an after-hours area (civilian or military) with the same colors which may potentially be easily seen and shot. . . Consider that finances and training take a lot of resources, so consistency in the replacement dogs helped increase their longevity in use. (Of course, we know modern personal protection dogs of other breeds, particularly for civilians, can be excepted for their colors as they are not as likely to be used in stealth work -- and many didn't have the same promotional history as the GSD.)

It was the development of the versatility of the breed that helped emphasize the dark dog model. That's my interpretation of the issues.

[wolfsoul]

I did google that site those dogs are mostly in Europe from what I read. I thought they weren't accepted in America? I phoned a friend who breeds german shepherds and she was saying that a lot of the studs were infertile and the females had trouble going into whelp because of their genetics??? I guess I'm going to have to do more research,most of the posts I've read have differing opinions and I would be interested in finding out more. I help my friend a lot at dog shows, but have never seen a white shepherd there. I did look at the picture from the first poster but that dog doesn't really look like the shepherds I'm used to seeing at the shows. The one thing I did notice is that the back was way too long compared to other german shepherds. The whole structure was different, like the tail is set too high or something, and the face doesn't have the same expression. I'm not a judge though, just going from what I see at shows, mostly obedience competitions.

American White shepherds are not recognised by AKC. AKC does have a white option on registration papers, however.

The dog in the picture is very correct -- and, in fact, I find them to be shorter in the body than American GSDs -- not longer. Even when stacked to make it look as if the dog does have angulation when it doesn't, the body still appears more square. They do not have an extreme angulation, and are not "hock walkers."

AWS:





GSDs, American style:

[borzoimom]

Mike001-
The German Shepherd in the Us does have a longer back and more angulation. Also in most breeds in the US, a female is permitted to be longer in the back. Its funny you mentioned infertility in Germany, as the US breeders believe the shorter backed German dogs- this is the source of the problem- longer back, more room for puppies.. Wives tail or not- I am not sure, but its long been the accepted standard in the breed here, and accepted more among the females especially.
By US standards, Nicole has a beautiful example of the breed, even if it is not a recognized color yet. When the German Shepherd was admitted into the AKC, varieties of a breed were not as widly accepted, and seldom named seperate breeds. Now that practice is pretty widly done- with varieties based on colors seperated as such into seperate breeds. The most obvious example of this is the Cocker Spaniel. ( Black, particolor, ASCOB - any solid color other than black..) or even the White Bull Terrier, and the Colored Bull terrier. Other than color- the standard reads the same.
With the white shepherd- there is just as much a loyal following, although not accepted yet, its coming into reality of being accepted at some point. The actual debate is not whether to accept, but whether it will be a variety- alias seperate breed, or just accepted in as a recognized color. When the politicians in the dog world make up their minds, I sure their acceptance will be coming.
I do however, find it funny the AKC changed the Russian Wolfhound to a Borzoi, because of relationships with Russia at the time and since then. However- we now accept the Black Russian Terrier. There has been a fight since day one in this to restore the name of the Borzoi back to the Russian Wolfhound.

[mike001]

Borzoid, I really don't know much about the american show lines, we were dealing mostly with the german lines. But I did notice the difference in the pictures. The shepherds don't have to be stretched out as much as the white dogs to be stacked, it just looks more natural. I would be more concerned about the fertility issues since all our german friends do not favour the whites because of health issues. I'm still into some different sites studying genetics, most of the sites so far say white in shepherds is a recessive colour??? I haven't met any white shepherd breeders since whites are generally frowned upon . Why would you want to own a dog that was not accepted by the AKC in the first place?

[borzoimom]

Borzoid, I really don't know much about the american show lines, we were dealing mostly with the german lines. But I did notice the difference in the pictures. The shepherds don't have to be stretched out as much as the white dogs to be stacked, it just looks more natural. I would be more concerned about the fertility issues since all our german friends do not favour the whites because of health issues. I'm still into some different sites studying genetics, most of the sites so far say white in shepherds is a recessive colour??? I haven't met any white shepherd breeders since whites are generally frowned upon . Why would you want to own a dog that was not accepted by the AKC in the first place?

The AKC recognition or lack there of does not make a breed- perfect example is the Leonbergers. Old breed- started many others, but has yet to be recognized here. Border collies- one of the oldest in some form not accepted until a few years back- does that mean our acknowledgment from the AKC makes a breed??? NO- BY DEFINITION- they can not make recognized without generations of traceable dogs, and a established standard. That means the breed was already there. Being allowed to show in AKC shows only states we have accepted a breed into a group etc to compete.. Even the belgiums are divided differently in titles, seperated in coat type and color but called another breed by other National Kennel Clubs.
Meanwhile- the rare breed clubs continue to have their own specialties. Championships and titles are awarded as the breed continues. And our acknowledgement does not make the breed go "POOF" INSTANT BREED- the breed already existed. If you look- you will see some of the later breeds admitted are actually very OLD ( !!!!) BREEDS.. Our admission doesnt mean the breed started then- just when it was acknowledged into the AKC..

[wolfsoul]

I agree with borzoimom -- AKC is not the endall to breeds. There are thousands of breeds out there not registered with AKC -- white shepherds ARE registered with AKC, but as a GSD, not an AWS, and they can not be shown under AKC. Some other registries, such as UKC, do allow them to show as a seperate breed.

There is no difference in health problems -- the white in GSDs is a masking gene -- meaning that underneath the white it is still a black and tan, sable, black, bi-colour, etc -- it does not have the health problems associated with many other white "genes," such as homozygous "double" merling or albinism/partial albinism. It is a big myth that white shepherds have health problems.

[mike001]

Well, I have been doing some research as mentioned, and have contacted GSD breeders. Here is what I have learned from the most reputable breeders and some info that they mailed.
White Shepherds should not be bred, they carry too many genetic faults. To breed a white you must go back several generations and have proof that all the past dogs have tested negative for MEGAE-PRAA...you have to have several generations that prove negative for RTM. Most breeders of whites don't spend the money for these tests.
Also, problems such as hemophilia, rear dew claws, and heart problems are very prevalent due to the very small gene pool.
Thyroid and cardiac tests are also important but most breeders ignore this.
We are supposed to be bettering the breed, white shepherds do not do this.
Seems that is the reason for seperation.

[borzoimom]

I hate to tell you this, but all the problems you mentioned on in any shepherd in potential. As as matter of fact, the whites are LESS likely to have hip dysplasia- a genetic condition that runs rampant in the other colors! Cardio myophathy, spinal myophy etc are all present in the "colored" shepherds- unusual in the whites...

[jackfrost]

HD does not run rampant, there are many other breeds ahead of GSD's in that catagory about 40 of them or so and I don't think any other breed is as highly tested I think maybe Retrievers have the same number or so tested thru OFA, the rest aren't even close. As for breakdowns of White shepherds VS. GSD's, I have yet to see that stat. Plus you'd have a tough time convincing me that a color selected against since the very beginning of the breed and only bred by people breeding outside the standard for COLOR ONLY has a healthier animal. Sorry, but argue all you want, common sense just says it isn't so.

What's so hard to understand. They bred white's to white's to get white's. a very small gene pool. Those that are breeding "colored" GSD's to whites and still getting white's are using ones that have known white's in their pedigree. The top GSD's are not being studded out or using their brood bitches to breed to white dogs to improve them. It's not happening. If you love your dogs fine, but come back to reality please.

I myself have been involved in working dogs only a short time compared to a lot of people. I am a student of the breed and it's history. I have regular contact with people that have been involved in the working and training working dogs for longer than I've been alive and they nor I have ever seen a white shepherds doing the things GSDs are. Many people i know that have been in this stuff over 40 years have seen or heard of maybe one or two ever. I liken it to "designer dog " websites, they're above normal intelligence, they don't shed, they love every one, their best of every world.