Breeder Impressions

[borzoimom]

Good point about diet- could be.. The standard for a sheltie says The Shetland Sheepdog should stand between 13 and 16 inches at the shoulder. Note: Height is determined by a line perpendicular to the ground from the top of the shoulder blades, the dog standing naturally, with forelegs parallel to line of measurement.

Disqualifications-- Heights below or above the desired size range are to be disqualified from the show ring.


Most of the shelties in agility are over 16 inch... hmmm.. The last show I saw on tv ( sorry can not travel right now) but the bulk of the shelties were in the 16" higher classes... Co-incidence- maybe... I wonder how big Aslan is- let me go to the other place and ask her...
*** And please note- I am just using the sheltie as an example. ***

[applesmom]

GSP's are 21 to 23 for bitches and 23 to 25 for dogs. It's rare to see a 25 inch dog in the ring nowadays. Most of the bitches are 24 or 25 now.

There is no height disqualification but they should be penalized. Howdy was a good 27 inches and it didn't slow him down a bit.

[borzoimom]

Well its like my breed- the standard says at least, then says males are usually. Shoot- what they state- that would be considered a small borzoi, but the standard says " at least height so in so..)

[bckrazy]

All I wanted to make sure if that June recieved proof of the parents being cleared for all genetic health problems. Even if the parents are a wreck conformationally, the worst thing possible would her little puppy ending up with a painful health problem because of poor breeding. Of course I would never buy from a breeder who didn't show/work/health test completely, and of course I do not feel anyone else should.

I didn't quite understand... are the parents certified or are they not?

And, I apologize for judging, but I am vehemently against BYB's and I just wanted to encourage her to look for a reputable breeder & make sure she wasn't being tricked.

I talked to an Aussie breeder when I was looking into Aussies about a year ago. She was awesome at talking on the phone, she had her story straight completely, she sounded like a very reputable breeder & claimed that her dogs were all "healthy" and "tested" & that she loved the breed and bred for hobby, and went to shows when she could. Then, while talking to some one from Aussie rescue, they brought up that she's a notorious BYB that produces a large amount of the double merle pups being dumped in area shelters. She has talked to many many people I'm sure, so she had her story down really well and she could've tricked me if I didn't demand proof of health certs & showing.

Anyway, evaluating that she's a lover of the breed and just has two "nice" dogs, but cannot be bothered to put in the effort to prove them conformationally or with health certs, I would classify her as a BYB. NICE people can still be BYB's, and can STILL be harming the breed.

Im sorry about saying "the board" is apathetic. I was referring to how it seems like some newer members encourage buying a puppy, regardless of the breeder.

[wolfsoul]

I know alot of breeders that are far from reputable but can certainly make themselves seem responsible. People have to remember that unless you know the person, the person's dogs, the dog's lines, and the dogs they've produced -- they know nothing. Health testing and working/showing is only part of the picture.

A dog in itself is a dog -- what the dog PRODUCES on the other hand, is of more importance. I've seen healthy dogs produce bad health, I've seen well-tempered dogs produce poor temperaments, I've seen beautiful dogs produce poorly conformed dogs....Often times, the dog's references don't mean a heck of alot. Give me a groenendael pedigree and I can point out to you which dogs produced epilepsy, which dogs produced hip dysplasia, which dogs produced cataracts, and were all healthy themselves. I didn't realise, until I got into breeding, that a dog's pedigree is more than just a list of achievements and titles behind your dog. It needs to be researched. Now I can look back in my pedigree and tell you which dogs had health problems, which dogs produced health problems, which dogs were not perfect temperamentally, and which dogs were not perfect conformationally -- THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a perfect pedigree. Every line has something in it's background. And if someone asks me what health problems lie behind my dogs' pedigrees, I will tell them. The goal is to produce something better.

As far as size, my friend has been breeding shelties for show her entire life. Sometimes big shelties happen. She had once bred a male out of a 14 inch female and a 13 inch male -- the pup turned into a whopping 20 inch sheltie. Her last litter was out of a 14 inch male and a female just over 14 -- Out of five pups (now 10 months old) she has one 13 inch male, 2 females just under 14, male just over 15, and a male that is now at 16 inches and will go oversize. My co-breeder's dog, Jasper, is 27.5 inches, out of Jake, a 25.5 inch male, and Annie, a 24 inch female, both out of average sized lines. The other pups were all average sized. A badly conformed dog is not the sign of a bad breeder -- Visa is one beautiful girl and has produced one beautiful pup, but I imagine she will have some poor looking pups in the future -- her siblings were not nearly as nice as she. Just the way things work.

Not only that, but sometiems there are pretty dogs that shouldn't be bred, and "ugly" dogs that should. Jag is not perfect conformationally by any means, but she will likely still be bred for temperament reasons. She is square and she has a typey head. Bred to a dog that can strengthen her conformation weaknesses, she can still have beautiful pups that have a good temperament to match.

Things are not always what they seem -- don't just jump at the opportunity to get a dog from a breeder who health certifies, works, and shows. It isn't that simple, though it should be. There are plenty of other things that determine a good breeder, and you need to ask other breeders and people who know the breeder in order to really know what the breeder is all about. Meeting past offspring is also a big help. I never ever trust the breeder first.

Just my two cents..

[applesmom]

Great post Wolfsoul!

A dog might look great (or not so great) in photo's but nothing beats a good hands-on evaluation!