Breeder Impressions

[applesmom]

Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

My opinion would be that neither one of them legitimately has the best interests of the breed at heart and neither one of them should be breeding at all! They're both unethical BYB!

The entire outlook on the ethical breeding of purebred dogs is changing. The majority of purebreds were originally developed for a purpose and were only sold or placed with those who would could appreciate all the effort, time, money and record keeping that went into developing that breed.

With the increasing demand for purebreds and the current attitude in breeding; if this keeps up it won't be much longer until it will be difficult to find a good example of many breeds anywhere.

One good example is the Maltese! Their popularity made them a prime money maker for puppy mills and pet shop sales and now the internet is overrun with ads for Maltese breeders.. The problems within this breed are horrendous! Proof of this disaster can be found by reading the Maltese Only forum that's literally filled with horror stories of beloved pets suffering from horrible inherited defects or turning out to be mixed breeds. Mixed breeds that were sold as purebreds for tremendous prices and represented to be purebred by supposedly "ethical" breeders.

I don't have the answer; but I am convinced that even with meticulous health testing; if a breeder isn't breeding according to standard and also to maintain the purpose that the breed was originally developed for; they have no business breeding, period!

The responsibility also lies with the purchasers of these puppies. They're not only encouraging unethical breeding practices; they're also contributing to the downfall of the breed. If there were no gullible buyers; there would be no careless or unethical breeders!

[borzoimom]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

[applesmom]

I'm not familiar with the height differences in Shelties. How many inches in height are we talking about?

The current trend in the majority of larger breeds seems to be an overall increase in height and weight. I've often wondered if it may have something to do with the constantly improving changes in diet over the years since the breeds were developed.

When the older breeds were being developed, it was taken for granted that nursing bitches would be thin which often led to improper nourishment for the puppies. Nowadays breeders are so much more aware and they see to it that the bitch is well nourished, provided with the proper vitamins and that all pups have equal time at the milk bar. When they're weaned they're fed good quality puppy chow, not left to scrounge for leftover table scraps.

Dietary improvements through the years have most certainly had the same effect on humans so maybe it's time to rethink the height standards in some breeds!

[borzoimom]

Good point about diet- could be.. The standard for a sheltie says The Shetland Sheepdog should stand between 13 and 16 inches at the shoulder. Note: Height is determined by a line perpendicular to the ground from the top of the shoulder blades, the dog standing naturally, with forelegs parallel to line of measurement.

Disqualifications-- Heights below or above the desired size range are to be disqualified from the show ring.


Most of the shelties in agility are over 16 inch... hmmm.. The last show I saw on tv ( sorry can not travel right now) but the bulk of the shelties were in the 16" higher classes... Co-incidence- maybe... I wonder how big Aslan is- let me go to the other place and ask her...
*** And please note- I am just using the sheltie as an example. ***

[applesmom]

GSP's are 21 to 23 for bitches and 23 to 25 for dogs. It's rare to see a 25 inch dog in the ring nowadays. Most of the bitches are 24 or 25 now.

There is no height disqualification but they should be penalized. Howdy was a good 27 inches and it didn't slow him down a bit.

[borzoimom]

Well its like my breed- the standard says at least, then says males are usually. Shoot- what they state- that would be considered a small borzoi, but the standard says " at least height so in so..)

[bckrazy]

All I wanted to make sure if that June recieved proof of the parents being cleared for all genetic health problems. Even if the parents are a wreck conformationally, the worst thing possible would her little puppy ending up with a painful health problem because of poor breeding. Of course I would never buy from a breeder who didn't show/work/health test completely, and of course I do not feel anyone else should.

I didn't quite understand... are the parents certified or are they not?

And, I apologize for judging, but I am vehemently against BYB's and I just wanted to encourage her to look for a reputable breeder & make sure she wasn't being tricked.

I talked to an Aussie breeder when I was looking into Aussies about a year ago. She was awesome at talking on the phone, she had her story straight completely, she sounded like a very reputable breeder & claimed that her dogs were all "healthy" and "tested" & that she loved the breed and bred for hobby, and went to shows when she could. Then, while talking to some one from Aussie rescue, they brought up that she's a notorious BYB that produces a large amount of the double merle pups being dumped in area shelters. She has talked to many many people I'm sure, so she had her story down really well and she could've tricked me if I didn't demand proof of health certs & showing.

Anyway, evaluating that she's a lover of the breed and just has two "nice" dogs, but cannot be bothered to put in the effort to prove them conformationally or with health certs, I would classify her as a BYB. NICE people can still be BYB's, and can STILL be harming the breed.

Im sorry about saying "the board" is apathetic. I was referring to how it seems like some newer members encourage buying a puppy, regardless of the breeder.

[Shelteez2]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

You are right there are many over sized shelties out there. Under sized ones too. Shelties are still a relatively new breed (in the grande scheme of things.... compared to say a labrador retriever) so they don't always breed true to type. Size is something many many good sheltie breeders struggle with.

I have two shelties. My female is from what I consider a byb. I didn't know better at the time. The breeder told us she wanted to get into breeding shelties. She had her female and used an outside stud. The dogs and pups were registered and the pups were sold on a spay/neuter contract.
I consider her a byb because the dogs weren't health tested and they were pet quality. The dam was in size, I don't know about the stud dog. My girl is 17" tall.

My male sheltie is from a very good breeder. She tests her breeding dogs and shows them in conformation. Pets are sold on spay/neuter contracts. My boys parents were both in size. The dam was 15" and the sire about 15.5". My boy is over sized. He is 18" tall. That's why I have him actually. The breeder was keeping him to show, but he went over size so he was sold as a pet. This leads to your other scenario

IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

I would clasify them as a byb. They are not trying to improve the breed as size is such an issue in the breed to begin with.

[agilityk9trainer]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

[borzoimom]

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

OH MY STARS!! WELCOME AGILITYK9TRAINER!!!! OH PT'Rs she has the most amazing agility shelties- WELCOME WELCOME!!
That is amazing you see the opposite of smaller shelties verses larger ones. You attend alot more agility trails that I do, and your observation would be more the norm than the my observations would be in this area. Also, the flyball competitions they just broadcasted had some awfully big shelties. Do you find flyball teams using bigger shelties or smaller ones?

[agilityk9trainer]

OH MY STARS!! WELCOME AGILITYK9TRAINER!!!! OH PT'Rs she has the most amazing agility shelties- WELCOME WELCOME!!
That is amazing you see the opposite of smaller shelties verses larger ones. You attend alot more agility trails that I do, and your observation would be more the norm than the my observations would be in this area. Also, the flyball competitions they just broadcasted had some awfully big shelties. Do you find flyball teams using bigger shelties or smaller ones?

We don't have much flyball in my area of the country. As far as I know, there are no shelties on the teams we do have. I have had some people ask me to have Aslan join their teams, as they love to have the fast, small dogs on their teams. The small dogs set the jump heights, so having a small dog on your team means the jump heights for the entire team are lower. Right now, I have no interest in flyball, although I encourage my students who do it to continue in the sport. I can see why it's a big draw for many dog owners.

[borzoimom]

Good point about the jump height with a smaller team member. !

[wolfsoul]

Welcome agilityk9trainer! My best friend breeds shelties. She just had a litter early this year.

These are her dogs' pics, attached..
The blue merle is Can Ch ptd JewelsGlow's Absolute No-No, "Taboo," taken when she was 2 years old. The tri is Sirona's Right on Target, "Arwyn," when she was 5 months. The sable is Jo-Ro's Just in Time AgMX MADC, "Justin." Taboo just finished her agility and obedience lessons and will be competing next year as well as finishing her CH (just two more points!). Arwyn is going to start her show career next year. Justin is almost completely deaf now but he only needs one more leg before he has his ATChC, so Kelly is going to try him one more time before he retires.

She also has a little sheltie that was given to her years ago -- her name is Rosie, and she's maybe 5 pounds. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of her too.

[agilityk9trainer]

Wolfsoul,

Beautiful shelties! Thanks for posting the pics. Glad to see your friend is active not only in conformation, but in performance as well. I loved the registered names matched with their call names! Very creative.

Borzoimom, thanks for the kind words.

As far as pure breed vs. mixed - this does depend on what you want to do with your dog. I want to show in agility in the AKC. I must have a pure bred. In addition, getting a pup from a known breeder of performance lines will GREATLY enhance that dog's chance of success in agility. As many of us live in areas where we are limited to the number of dogs we can own (I can only have four in my city), I need to be sure that the dogs I get can handle the stress of performance, And, for dogs who don't have the emotional constitution to handle the stress, showing becomes almost abusive. My two shelties come from a performance breeder. They were bred to be high-drive, working dogs who can handle the stresses of competition. And, they LOVE it. My rescued American Eskimo, on the other hand, loves agility but HATES to compete. The stress of the show ring is too much for her. She was bred by a BYB.

Now, I'm limited to only one more dog. I plan on getting that puppy in about 18 months. As a professional agility instructor, I am, fairly or unfairly, judged by my dogs' performance in the ring. I really need a good working dog, and my best bet to find that dog is to go back to my performance breeder.

Of course, I'm not saying all rescues are bad agility dogs. I know tons of great agility rescues. But, I know just as many rescues that couldn't handle the stress. I'm just saying your chances of getting a good performance dog from a performance breeder are better than your chances of getting a good performance dog from rescue.

However, were I not showing, you can bet all my dogs would be rescues!!

[borzoimom]

Well- I would still have Borzois. And I want sound genetics so probably still back to a breeder. However- with Femka- we took her. If not showing, they would probably still be show quality dogs. But its hard to say for sure- I haven't crossed that bridge yet.
My real guess is my next Borzoi will be Galinas son or daughter. ( I keep saying "or"... lol verses "and"..)