Breeder Impressions

[borzoimom]

I hear what you are saying applesmom, but I think we also need to add the difference from a "hobby breeder", and a " backyard" breeder. A " hobby " breeder is one that does the genetic testings on their dogs also, may not be actively showing, but dedicated to their breed, and breeding only good representatives of the breed.
The " typical backyard " breeder- is one that well I have a male and female cocker spaniel- what the heck- we could have puppies ... There is no attempt in either good parents of the pups, or an attempt to get good representatives of the breed. Shelties are a perfect example of this. Shelties can easily be too big- not the smaller ones seen in shows, but more of a working sheltie. Size aside- at least some try to make the dogs healthy- others do not-
Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

[applesmom]

Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

My opinion would be that neither one of them legitimately has the best interests of the breed at heart and neither one of them should be breeding at all! They're both unethical BYB!

The entire outlook on the ethical breeding of purebred dogs is changing. The majority of purebreds were originally developed for a purpose and were only sold or placed with those who would could appreciate all the effort, time, money and record keeping that went into developing that breed.

With the increasing demand for purebreds and the current attitude in breeding; if this keeps up it won't be much longer until it will be difficult to find a good example of many breeds anywhere.

One good example is the Maltese! Their popularity made them a prime money maker for puppy mills and pet shop sales and now the internet is overrun with ads for Maltese breeders.. The problems within this breed are horrendous! Proof of this disaster can be found by reading the Maltese Only forum that's literally filled with horror stories of beloved pets suffering from horrible inherited defects or turning out to be mixed breeds. Mixed breeds that were sold as purebreds for tremendous prices and represented to be purebred by supposedly "ethical" breeders.

I don't have the answer; but I am convinced that even with meticulous health testing; if a breeder isn't breeding according to standard and also to maintain the purpose that the breed was originally developed for; they have no business breeding, period!

The responsibility also lies with the purchasers of these puppies. They're not only encouraging unethical breeding practices; they're also contributing to the downfall of the breed. If there were no gullible buyers; there would be no careless or unethical breeders!

[borzoimom]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

[applesmom]

I'm not familiar with the height differences in Shelties. How many inches in height are we talking about?

The current trend in the majority of larger breeds seems to be an overall increase in height and weight. I've often wondered if it may have something to do with the constantly improving changes in diet over the years since the breeds were developed.

When the older breeds were being developed, it was taken for granted that nursing bitches would be thin which often led to improper nourishment for the puppies. Nowadays breeders are so much more aware and they see to it that the bitch is well nourished, provided with the proper vitamins and that all pups have equal time at the milk bar. When they're weaned they're fed good quality puppy chow, not left to scrounge for leftover table scraps.

Dietary improvements through the years have most certainly had the same effect on humans so maybe it's time to rethink the height standards in some breeds!

[borzoimom]

Good point about diet- could be.. The standard for a sheltie says The Shetland Sheepdog should stand between 13 and 16 inches at the shoulder. Note: Height is determined by a line perpendicular to the ground from the top of the shoulder blades, the dog standing naturally, with forelegs parallel to line of measurement.

Disqualifications-- Heights below or above the desired size range are to be disqualified from the show ring.


Most of the shelties in agility are over 16 inch... hmmm.. The last show I saw on tv ( sorry can not travel right now) but the bulk of the shelties were in the 16" higher classes... Co-incidence- maybe... I wonder how big Aslan is- let me go to the other place and ask her...
*** And please note- I am just using the sheltie as an example. ***

[Shelteez2]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

You are right there are many over sized shelties out there. Under sized ones too. Shelties are still a relatively new breed (in the grande scheme of things.... compared to say a labrador retriever) so they don't always breed true to type. Size is something many many good sheltie breeders struggle with.

I have two shelties. My female is from what I consider a byb. I didn't know better at the time. The breeder told us she wanted to get into breeding shelties. She had her female and used an outside stud. The dogs and pups were registered and the pups were sold on a spay/neuter contract.
I consider her a byb because the dogs weren't health tested and they were pet quality. The dam was in size, I don't know about the stud dog. My girl is 17" tall.

My male sheltie is from a very good breeder. She tests her breeding dogs and shows them in conformation. Pets are sold on spay/neuter contracts. My boys parents were both in size. The dam was 15" and the sire about 15.5". My boy is over sized. He is 18" tall. That's why I have him actually. The breeder was keeping him to show, but he went over size so he was sold as a pet. This leads to your other scenario

IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

I would clasify them as a byb. They are not trying to improve the breed as size is such an issue in the breed to begin with.

[agilityk9trainer]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

[borzoimom]

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

OH MY STARS!! WELCOME AGILITYK9TRAINER!!!! OH PT'Rs she has the most amazing agility shelties- WELCOME WELCOME!!
That is amazing you see the opposite of smaller shelties verses larger ones. You attend alot more agility trails that I do, and your observation would be more the norm than the my observations would be in this area. Also, the flyball competitions they just broadcasted had some awfully big shelties. Do you find flyball teams using bigger shelties or smaller ones?