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Thread: White Shepherds

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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
    The falsehoods about the White Shepherds and the gene that causes their coat color are many. First White Shepherds are NOT albinos. Albinos have no pigment and usually pink eyes. The White Shepherds have brown eyes and black pigment on their noses, mouth, paw pads, eye rims,sometimes a black dusting in their ears and sometimes have darker skin and nails.

    Color paling was another rumor that has since been proven false. The white gene is a masking gene, not a dilute gene (such as liver and blue). A masking gene hides the real color and pattern of the dog. A White Shepherd can be any color found in the German Shepherd Dog like black, black and tan, black and red, black and silver, black and cream, blue, liver, sable, saddled and bi-colored. The only time dilution could occur is when a White Shepherd is masking a diluted color like blue or liver. The white gene is a recessive gene. The only thing the gene expresses is coat color. It does not cause poor health, temperament or any other.
    I wanted to point out that as of this date, there has not been a 'White' gene associated with dogs. It has been found in other species of animals, but not in dogs.

    In all mammalian coat color genetics, there are only two types of pigment. One is Eumelanin (which codes for "true" black or near black) and phaeomelanin (which codes for biscuit, to red, an brown/tan colors). True "white" is the absence of pigment granules in the hair.

    In dogs, "white" color in several sable/agouti breeds (in the A series) is caused, in part, by a recessive form of the extension gene (E series). Only dogs carrying at least one dominant allele for E can have black in their coat. So the double e (e/e) derails the formation of black pigment (eumelanin) in the hair at the melanocortin-1-receptor. This affects the formation of black pigment in the *hair* only -- e/e dogs will always have pale colored whiskers, they cannot have black hair at all.

    Colloquially, the e/e combination is sometimes called "recessive red", this is because a fully pigmented dog can only have two types of pigment, black or red. That colloquial name can confuse the matter because the gene involved with e/e regards black pigment. So if the dog is not black, it can only be red if it is fully pigmented.

    So what if you or an animal you have is e/e? Having lighter color recessives which permit expression for blonde or red hair, just means you do not have the genetics to form the blackest form of pigment in your hair strands. Has nothing to do with albinism or your dog being genetically disfigured.

    Albinism: True albinism alleles are associated with the "C" series (on Tyrosinase gene), which controls Color ("to be or not to be"). The C series as it affects phaeomelinin (and eumelanin to some degree) in other animals, has not been shown to exist as originally expected in dogs. For example the 'chinchilla' allele c^ch which Dr Clarence Little had theorized. Tyrosinase (the gene controlling expression of these traits) may or may not still be implicated but it just hasn't been resolved in dogs to date. GSDs and other white sable breeds would be capital "C" in this series because they ARE fully pigmented dogs. They just have a protein that merely affects the pigment granules in their hair.

    Another gene associated with white, is the Merle gene - and this one IS directly implicated in birth defects. This gene is not found in purebred GSDs (nor ASDs).

    Pinto alleles do not concern purebred GSD so we won't get into that here. Although an interesting mutation has occured in the GSD - "Panda Shepherds" which have been DNA'd and are truly a mutation.

    To date, it is not known what turns off the phaeomelinin (biscuit, red to brown) in e/e breeds that are "white" instead of red. But e/e has certainly been implicated as part of the factors that produce "white" sable breeds.

    Typical e/e breeds are Golden Retrievers and yellow Labradors. You never see solid red (or yellow) GSDs or Anatolians - if they are reddish, they will also have black hair and that means that they are not "recessive red" (also called 'clear red'). This is because another unidentified gene also at least partially derails the complete formation of the second pigment, phaeomelanin. Sometimes these "white" breeds, like the e/e breeds will have a little more biscuit color to the edges of their ears. Phaeomelanin is temperature sensitive and cooler areas of the body will sometimes appear darker.

    Scientists involved with the genome studies regularly report their new findings. Sometimes it is a little bit hard to follow if one doesn't have the background or sheer determination<g>.

    A very useful site to read about pigment studies in dogs is here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

    Having said all that, people create breed standards based on an 'artist's conception' of conformation to manmade ideals of perfection.

    My thoughts on this is that since the agouti/sable colored breeds as I know them, have banded hairs. See pic:

    When the dog gets a double dose of e/e, it affects the production of the banded pattern - because both eumelanin and phaeomelanin alternate in agouti hairs normally. Since the black pigment doesn't ever turn on, it somehow results in hijacking of the production of the pigmented coat pattern, thus giving us the "white" (or cream white) colored hair. This is just my own conjecture, because in these sable breeds, if there is an additional allele that is involved, that only turns off red or dilutes red, that would mean that this stray gene would sometimes occur in it's recessive or dominant state separate from the state of the allele in the E series. That might mean we could see white GSDs with black masks if this separate gene worked in a typical autosomal diploid manner. Since this doesn't happen, I think that something in the banding pattern of the A series gets hijacked when the E series is in a recessive state.

    The hair snapshot above is from an Anatolian female (the center dog in my sig). This female has "white" ancestors in her pedigree as do many Turkish dogs.
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  2. #2
    SemaviLady - I am totally lost as by what you posted. The white Gene in GSD's is a masking gene not an albino gene. Which means that the White GSD can be any color that is in the GSD but that it is masking that color. So Sheena(my white) could be a bl&tn or a rd&tn or a full black but the white gene is masking her color so she is white. If she was bred to a colored GSD we would have no idea what colors she would throw in the pups because we don't know what color she is masking.

    We do know when a wh is bred to a wh then they only throw white pups
    when a white is bred to a colored that has the wh gene then they throw white and colored pups
    when a white is bred to a colored without the white gene then they throw all colored pups. So the gene has to be in both the parents for the masking affect to take place.

    And yes white coated dogs can have black or other colored fur come out int eh coat. In 3 years Sheena has had about 20 hairs that have been black appear on her neck and shoulders. Always one at a time but they do show up. And yes they are attached so I know they are not from our black Luca.

    Agian I read what you posted but didn't understand half of what you wrote. I just posted what I know and what has been studied. if you want to learn more about the genetics of hte WS I suggest you go here: The White Shepherds Genetics Project. http://www.wsgenetics.org/

    I am a contributing member to this project and the things they are learning and doing to better the WS is amazing.
    Nicole

  3. #3
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    I didnt understand how this applied either. I had a sable shepherd bred to a black and tan that produced a white- how??? Who knows.. There must have a white factor in the lines.. A white shepherd has none of the characterists of another white dog- they have dark pigment on the mouth, nose, and eyes and paws.. its not the same thing..

  4. #4
    I have been reading all the posts here and I still don't understand . What is a PSD if not a police dog? And why is someone breeding white sheperds since they have so many health problems and temperament problems? How come breeding them is accepted? Excuse all the questions, but being new here I am a little confused with all the posts.

  5. #5
    Its because they dont really have all those problems that the urban myths say they do, which would sort of be the clear answer. You'll find people that love them, like many of the people on this thread, and then you will find people that believe they are inferior....if you read all the way back from the beginning you will see the of the arguments for that....they're pretty much all there (the for and against arguments)

    I have been doing some reading up on the Berger Blanc Suisse website, and I am amazed what they do with those dogs...they are probably some of the most genetically maintained and sound dogs on the face of the planet....(not that I would expect anything less of the swiss...everythign they do has to be just right.)

    If you want information on that, google berger blanc suisse and then click on the translated version of the swiss berger blanc suisse website....it should be something along the lines of www.bergerblancsuisse.ch

  6. #6
    I did google that site those dogs are mostly in Europe from what I read. I thought they weren't accepted in America? I phoned a friend who breeds german shepherds and she was saying that a lot of the studs were infertile and the females had trouble going into whelp because of their genetics??? I guess I'm going to have to do more research,most of the posts I've read have differing opinions and I would be interested in finding out more. I help my friend a lot at dog shows, but have never seen a white shepherd there. I did look at the picture from the first poster but that dog doesn't really look like the shepherds I'm used to seeing at the shows. The one thing I did notice is that the back was way too long compared to other german shepherds. The whole structure was different, like the tail is set too high or something, and the face doesn't have the same expression. I'm not a judge though, just going from what I see at shows, mostly obedience competitions.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike001
    I did google that site those dogs are mostly in Europe from what I read. I thought they weren't accepted in America? I phoned a friend who breeds german shepherds and she was saying that a lot of the studs were infertile and the females had trouble going into whelp because of their genetics??? I guess I'm going to have to do more research,most of the posts I've read have differing opinions and I would be interested in finding out more. I help my friend a lot at dog shows, but have never seen a white shepherd there. I did look at the picture from the first poster but that dog doesn't really look like the shepherds I'm used to seeing at the shows. The one thing I did notice is that the back was way too long compared to other german shepherds. The whole structure was different, like the tail is set too high or something, and the face doesn't have the same expression. I'm not a judge though, just going from what I see at shows, mostly obedience competitions.
    American White shepherds are not recognised by AKC. AKC does have a white option on registration papers, however.

    The dog in the picture is very correct -- and, in fact, I find them to be shorter in the body than American GSDs -- not longer. Even when stacked to make it look as if the dog does have angulation when it doesn't, the body still appears more square. They do not have an extreme angulation, and are not "hock walkers."

    AWS:





    GSDs, American style:



    I've been BOO'd!

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    My impression on the GSD and the white color issue in that breed, is that the history of the breed involves its war dog history and other uses that were promoted by von Stephanitz in order to ensure the breed's development and survival. A dog that could do it all (and truly, is a breed that does).

    Out of that would come prejudice over different physical attributes -- and depending on one's point of reference during the formation period, the reasons could be realistic or made to sound mysteriously complicated to the point of urban legend. ...and thus it is for 'white color' in GSDs.

    Some traits were easier to control than others. A rough coat, poor earset or white color were among the visible things that were not favored. Color as we know, is always an easy focus point.

    Try to be stealthy on enemy territory while using white wardogs or flashily marked ones. Try to secure an after-hours area (civilian or military) with the same colors which may potentially be easily seen and shot. . . Consider that finances and training take a lot of resources, so consistency in the replacement dogs helped increase their longevity in use. (Of course, we know modern personal protection dogs of other breeds, particularly for civilians, can be excepted for their colors as they are not as likely to be used in stealth work -- and many didn't have the same promotional history as the GSD.)

    It was the development of the versatility of the breed that helped emphasize the dark dog model. That's my interpretation of the issues.
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
    SemaviLady - I am totally lost as by what you posted. The white Gene in GSD's is a masking gene not an albino gene.
    The information on the link at the GSD site is a bit outdated. It is theoretical with regard to a proposed 'cd' gene. It has not proven to exist thus far and so far, it appears that it will not be.

    I am talking about scientific studies on *molecular genetics*. Molecular genetics supercedes theoretical classical genetics. The latter provides behavioral details for how the genes interact to create different coat colors. We learn how breeding one color to another may mask or otherwise affect or not, another color. Molecular genetics gives the GPS (if you will) of the location of the alleles involved.

    If you do have information that pinpoints the location of the 'cd' gene as it involves tyrosinase, please share the share the reference source. Other loci affected the chinchilla gene 'C' (the GSD site calls it the 'color' gene) in dogs have been located, but so far, the 'cd' gene is a bogus one. Willis wrote about the 'cd' theory before we had developed the handle that we do on genome studies.

    Behaviorally, the 'e/e' or extension gene as understood in current molecular studies on dog color works very well. Dr Schmutz is directly involved in the studies at a molecular level of dog color genetics. Again her page on 'white' in dogs is located here under the block of information for "White Coat with Pigmented Eyelids"
    http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/white.html

    Loved your posting, btw. Take care.
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  10. #10
    Semavi---I was fascinated by your post, but was at a total loss. I think I will have to take down all your info and do a bit of studying since all this business of white shepherds is so involved. It's just that from the picture of the white shepherd the poster showed it seemed overly long and the structure doesn't really fit the standard that i know. Everyone always said that you should always breed to improve the breed. I just didn't understand a breeding with white shepherds I guess. off to do my studying. Thanks for all the info.

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