White Shepherds

[borzoimom]

I agree Ceph.

[jackfrost]

they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare

and if white shepherds just popped up in gsd's bred for health temperment and working ability than i'm sure on a whole, there wouldn't be any difference in how they performed. BUT in the case of White's that isn't the case.

Its the same as people that just breed for only the black saddle look with red color that have a "flying" trot. Not much comes out in the way of working abilities of those dogs on a consistent level. Sure some can, but they are the exception, not the rule. When you breed for one color, one trait period, you lose the rest of the dog. Those aren't rules I made up, it just happens.

another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying

I'm more of the opposite, If I'm not sure of what i'm saying I don't say much, but if I do, I"m quite animate about it, especially when people disagree. and yet i've still found a way to stick my foot in my mouth more than once.

If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines.

That would be true, but there is a big BUT here, i don't think its too far of a stretch for me to say or for others to see, that if I go to a kennel that has consistently tested their stock, and study bloodlines and produce good working dogs on a consistent basis, and I got to a kennel that neither tests, nor studies, just breeds to GSD's cause they're registered with the AKC, i'm going to find a vast difference in the dogs?? I thought I knew what GSD's were for 20 years till I got exposed to working line GSD's, its night and day difference.

I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

They may be I've never been there, I can only go by what I've seen here, and what others that I work with have seen. Breeding dogs in America is sadly very outclassed (generally speaking) by our European counter parts. Because they do test and prove their stock before breeding, unlike here, anything with AKC papers can be bred. Technically and genetically Identical, but so far apart on the field proving themselves.

Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

when you look at it just from a color stand point you're correct. When you look at the history, it becomes a lot more clear. I'll try and put it as concise as I can. Whites have been selected against since the beginning. Maybe not here in america, but we have done nothing good for the GSD I'm not even going to get into that.

Whether or not I have hard facts, its not too hard to imagine that the gene for white was in a relatively small population of GSD's as they were not showing up very often at all in litters. With the amount of line breeding and such going on, I think there would have been more. When they did show up, they were not bred and not sold as breeding stock by good breeders.

Breeders breeding whites, didn't take two proven working animals to try and get whites, they took whites and bred them to whites to get them consistently. If they wanted new blood they weren't getting proven dogs from the best working stock, those breeders weren't letting their dogs breed to them. It just didn't happen to any appreciable level. So the quality of dog used to make Whites did have an impact on their working ability. I can see it when we do what we do.

But somehow I always hear about these dogs with more drive, more brains, more loyal, better structure, better health, etc, with all those things working against them. It doesn't add up to me on paper, and in working situations, well it just verifies it.

Sorry I take such offense to that, like I said I don't much appreciate lip service being paid to the reputation that GSD's have built for themselves. To me its not much different than wolf hybrid breeders saying that way back when there was an infusion of wolf blood to gsd's so their dogs are "super" dogs as well. The SV and Max were very clear on this, they hated that practice, they despised it, they threw people out that did it. They knew there was nothing to be added to the GSD by adding wolf blood except for animals that were very shy of people, had no biddabilty towards people, and didn't like captivity. Yet I can google or you can, and see what these breeders are saying about how their dogs are the this and that because Max himself used wolf blood to create the gsd. I think if you read his book, you'll come away with a different conclusion than they're claiming, but if you haven't you might be inclined to believe they hype.

[Ceph]

throwing peoples words and mistakes back in their faces is insulting, and you have done it multiple times.

come off it.... Let the white german shepherd people here have our thread, and if you feel the need to start a thread about why you think GSDs are awsome then go ahead and do it....but let us have our own beliefs. We didn't bash on GSDs, we just happen to think ours are better (I think my husky shepherd pup could beat any dog any day in temperment and in looks...but thats because he is mine and he is wonderful)...you prolly feel the same about your dogs. Dont be so intolerant that you wouldnt allow someone to think their dogs are better. What do you do when some little girl walks up with her poodle and says she has the bestest, smartest, most wonderful animal in the world? Belittle her and make her cry? Thats what you have done here...allow people their own opinion.

Give people credit in researching....if people are trying to find animal, most intelligent people will know the difference between a breed owner talking fondly about their breed and the truth.

Leave us in peace and go bug someone else. We'll let you have your opinion, let us have ours.

oh, and as far as reading in that time-period goes, I tend not to....people are that time period where very close minded...hec, women werent allowed in the military, now they are participating in black ops all over the world...wonderful what new ideas can do.

But I will look up his work anyway and see if anything he has to say changes my mind...because I think it is important to look at things from all sides. And if nothing else, I enjoy reading.