White Shepherds

[jackfrost]

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-

I have no doubt that it happens. I have no doubt that some are really fine animals. I do have a problem with saying that because the great grandsire of horand was white they are somehow a "super" dog and they have more brains and drive and can do everything as good or better than GSD's. If you're comparing your average american line GSD maybe, if you're comparing a GSD with lineage of working dogs, they aren't even close to the same dog.

I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

[Ceph]

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.

[borzoimom]

good point ceph. All the can determine now is a whippet is a whippet but not the color right? I know in my breed, with records sealed or distroyed in the Russian fall of the Tsars. Its almost impossible to know what colors were the earlier dogs- just even 75 years back unless you have pictures.

[jackfrost]

no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.

Did you get your stuff on hybird vigor figured out then?? Outward data means a lot. Looking at the very narrow scope of just genes will leave out the big picture. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. WHite breeder's breeding whites to get them consistently breed to a dog that has been selected against. So much so that their temperment, their working ability is nowhere close to producing those working dogs on a consitent level. From just a gene standpoint you're correct, but from a whole dog standpoint, you couldn't be further from the truth.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

[Ceph]

Did you get your stuff on hybird vigor figured out then?? Outward data means a lot. Looking at the very narrow scope of just genes will leave out the big picture. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. WHite breeder's breeding whites to get them consistently breed to a dog that has been selected against. So much so that their temperment, their working ability is nowhere close to producing those working dogs on a consitent level. From just a gene standpoint you're correct, but from a whole dog standpoint, you couldn't be further from the truth.

I will admit I made a mistake, I forgot slightly what the word meant...I meant breeding outside the lines...not breeding cousin to cousin...when I said it...I neglected to remember that it is more of a crossbreeding term.

Here is one more statement though....if you hadnt been so insulting I might have actually listened to some of the things you said, I am the first to admit that I dont know that much about dogs, I know more about farm animals...when Virginia Tech Breeds horses they look at the genetics of the animals, the breed relations and what they can produce...they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare.

another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying.

Also if genetically I am right then doesnt it stand to reason that what you said about the whites not coming from colors being untrue? If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines. I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

[borzoimom]

I agree Ceph.

[jackfrost]

they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare

and if white shepherds just popped up in gsd's bred for health temperment and working ability than i'm sure on a whole, there wouldn't be any difference in how they performed. BUT in the case of White's that isn't the case.

Its the same as people that just breed for only the black saddle look with red color that have a "flying" trot. Not much comes out in the way of working abilities of those dogs on a consistent level. Sure some can, but they are the exception, not the rule. When you breed for one color, one trait period, you lose the rest of the dog. Those aren't rules I made up, it just happens.

another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying

I'm more of the opposite, If I'm not sure of what i'm saying I don't say much, but if I do, I"m quite animate about it, especially when people disagree. and yet i've still found a way to stick my foot in my mouth more than once.

If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines.

That would be true, but there is a big BUT here, i don't think its too far of a stretch for me to say or for others to see, that if I go to a kennel that has consistently tested their stock, and study bloodlines and produce good working dogs on a consistent basis, and I got to a kennel that neither tests, nor studies, just breeds to GSD's cause they're registered with the AKC, i'm going to find a vast difference in the dogs?? I thought I knew what GSD's were for 20 years till I got exposed to working line GSD's, its night and day difference.

I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

They may be I've never been there, I can only go by what I've seen here, and what others that I work with have seen. Breeding dogs in America is sadly very outclassed (generally speaking) by our European counter parts. Because they do test and prove their stock before breeding, unlike here, anything with AKC papers can be bred. Technically and genetically Identical, but so far apart on the field proving themselves.

Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

when you look at it just from a color stand point you're correct. When you look at the history, it becomes a lot more clear. I'll try and put it as concise as I can. Whites have been selected against since the beginning. Maybe not here in america, but we have done nothing good for the GSD I'm not even going to get into that.

Whether or not I have hard facts, its not too hard to imagine that the gene for white was in a relatively small population of GSD's as they were not showing up very often at all in litters. With the amount of line breeding and such going on, I think there would have been more. When they did show up, they were not bred and not sold as breeding stock by good breeders.

Breeders breeding whites, didn't take two proven working animals to try and get whites, they took whites and bred them to whites to get them consistently. If they wanted new blood they weren't getting proven dogs from the best working stock, those breeders weren't letting their dogs breed to them. It just didn't happen to any appreciable level. So the quality of dog used to make Whites did have an impact on their working ability. I can see it when we do what we do.

But somehow I always hear about these dogs with more drive, more brains, more loyal, better structure, better health, etc, with all those things working against them. It doesn't add up to me on paper, and in working situations, well it just verifies it.

Sorry I take such offense to that, like I said I don't much appreciate lip service being paid to the reputation that GSD's have built for themselves. To me its not much different than wolf hybrid breeders saying that way back when there was an infusion of wolf blood to gsd's so their dogs are "super" dogs as well. The SV and Max were very clear on this, they hated that practice, they despised it, they threw people out that did it. They knew there was nothing to be added to the GSD by adding wolf blood except for animals that were very shy of people, had no biddabilty towards people, and didn't like captivity. Yet I can google or you can, and see what these breeders are saying about how their dogs are the this and that because Max himself used wolf blood to create the gsd. I think if you read his book, you'll come away with a different conclusion than they're claiming, but if you haven't you might be inclined to believe they hype.

[Ceph]

throwing peoples words and mistakes back in their faces is insulting, and you have done it multiple times.

come off it.... Let the white german shepherd people here have our thread, and if you feel the need to start a thread about why you think GSDs are awsome then go ahead and do it....but let us have our own beliefs. We didn't bash on GSDs, we just happen to think ours are better (I think my husky shepherd pup could beat any dog any day in temperment and in looks...but thats because he is mine and he is wonderful)...you prolly feel the same about your dogs. Dont be so intolerant that you wouldnt allow someone to think their dogs are better. What do you do when some little girl walks up with her poodle and says she has the bestest, smartest, most wonderful animal in the world? Belittle her and make her cry? Thats what you have done here...allow people their own opinion.

Give people credit in researching....if people are trying to find animal, most intelligent people will know the difference between a breed owner talking fondly about their breed and the truth.

Leave us in peace and go bug someone else. We'll let you have your opinion, let us have ours.

oh, and as far as reading in that time-period goes, I tend not to....people are that time period where very close minded...hec, women werent allowed in the military, now they are participating in black ops all over the world...wonderful what new ideas can do.

But I will look up his work anyway and see if anything he has to say changes my mind...because I think it is important to look at things from all sides. And if nothing else, I enjoy reading.