White Shepherds

[Sophist]

You could PM me as well, I may know him, but I can't say we get any requests for whites, Belgians yeah because they're cheaper, but not whites. I'd like to know what LEO's are looking for that? Besides the fact that they like the color white.

Actually, my dad does not prefer the color white. When he is taking color into consideration, he tends to prefer darker dogs as K-9 units, since they tend to intimidate suspects more and since people can't pick them out as easily if they're trying to go in during darkness and all... but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.

My father has mainly selected dogs for several Sheriff's offices (which also work in the local academy), search and rescue, the county jail, a couple special "school k-9 units" that work the public schools only, and Methamphetamine Enforcement Teams.

[Sophist]

Oh, forgot to add...

I very, very, very rarely give out my surname online, so I don't think I'll be PM'ing you my dads name to see if you know him. How about you just send me the names of all the cops you know in Cali and I'll tell you if you know him .

[jackfrost]

but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

[NicoleLJ]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

I have seen some whites do some good work, just the majority of them do not pass. Its not the situation I created, its just how it is. When someone is telling me a LEO is searching for white's cause they do better work??? I wonder just where that person is coming from. Its far easier to find a GSD or mal than any of the others, and mal's are much cheaper. Nobody wants to believe me, so I sent you some links where other people that import, train, and breed working dogs, see what they have to say on that issue, then come back and tell me I'm lying.

Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.

I've done far more than read a few breeder websites to form my "opinion".

I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.

You keep saying that the gene pool is large, it is not.

YOu keep saying they have more brains and drive, yet can only show me two websites with the same dogs on them over the past 20 or 30 years and only a handful of dogs are there. Why, because that's all that have accomplished much. I've been there and see what happens.

You keep saying they have better working temperments yet they aren't overwhelming any working venue, or even represented very often?? Most people with working dogs could care less what color they are, they go to what dogs can work. You keep saying they have more drive, yet you raise Psychiatric Service Dogs? Where does high drive come in to play with that? Are you telling me that those services look for dogs with a good balance of high prey and high defense drive?? Funny cause every service dog outfit i've ever placed dogs in were all looking for lower drive dogs, EVERY ONE. When I see lip service being paid to something the finest breed in the world does, i get offended.

You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-

[jackfrost]

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-

I have no doubt that it happens. I have no doubt that some are really fine animals. I do have a problem with saying that because the great grandsire of horand was white they are somehow a "super" dog and they have more brains and drive and can do everything as good or better than GSD's. If you're comparing your average american line GSD maybe, if you're comparing a GSD with lineage of working dogs, they aren't even close to the same dog.

I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

[Ceph]

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.

[Ceph]

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

I have only ever seen belgians more expensive...not hard when you can get a shepherd for free from some backyard breeder though...

Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.

Jackfrost, I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.

I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.

We put some stuff out too. It didnt seem to change your mind some.

You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

Jack - you came onto a thread that was positive and started an argument and put down and insulted several people. The way my daddy raised me that was called insulting. I will cede that you have your own opinion, and that it may possibly be true...but dont try to force it on us. You arent going to change our minds by insulting us, just as we wont change yours by arguing....why dont we just leave it at that.

If it makes a difference, the Virginia Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (a top Veterinary College) is right near by. I can walk down there and ask some geneticists and Veterinarians about that. Would any of that help, or even change your mind? Thats true hard data.

and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.

(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.

[NicoleLJ]

and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.

(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.

LOL Yup. You got us there. That is why I keep trying to say that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But they are not entiled to be demeaning and insulting just because someone elses opinion and knowledge is different then their own.
Nicole

[Sophist]

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

Again, I never in any way asserted or implied that I myself imported, trained, bought or sold k-9 units, so try not to pat yourself on the back too much for that little bit of deductive reasoning.

And please keep in mind that I did readily admit that my price info came from online ads, breeders pages, and newspapers. As I said before, I have never claimed to be in the habit of buying and selling these dogs, so it isn't like I've been making industry connections for years and compiling folders on dogs available from overseas just because I have that time on my hands. The money doesn't come out of my pocket, so I don't know the exact amounts. But, from the evidence I could find, B. Mals and B. Tervurens were more expensive than American GSDs, which I tried to make it clear from the beginning was what I was comparing to. That is why I expressed surprise over your price assertion and asked for more info.
I never tried to come across as a K-9 unit expert, in fact I made it quite clear that it was my father who does that work (and happened to discuss white shepherds with me, so when I saw a white shepherd thread I thought I had an amusing tidbit to add) and the extent of my experience in purchasing/owning/training GSDs was a mix from the pound who I have owned for about one week. So, once again, please don't try to overstate my claims, even if it does make it easier and more enjoyable to attack me.

[borzoimom]

Femka was brought here from the Netherlands for 5 grand. ( spayed female), One of my male shepherds from Germany was 3 grand and it took a month quarrentine, and he never really recovered from it.. I paid 2 grand for my first and second belgium but only 1200 for a female shepherd from New Skeet... Price is set by the seller and the willingness to pay from the buyer. Borzois are reallllly expensive.

[wolfsoul]

I'm still very confused as to why the American white shepherd needs to be compared to the German shepherd. The American white shepherd does not need to prove itself in schutzhund -- that is not it's purpose. From what I understand, the general purpose of the breed is as a service dog, which requires a much calmer and less driven dog -- not a dog that would excell at French ring. You might as well compare it to any other breed.

I disagree that breeding for one colour causes so many issues. There was never a limited gene pool -- between the 1940's and 60's, 90% of GSDs carried the recessive white gene. It's like saying that my dogs are going to be unhealthy and unable to work because I'm breeding specifically for black dogs. There are ALOT more coloured dogs out there, yet I'm breeding for black. No issues here!

[wolfsoul]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price.

I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

[jackfrost]

I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

and we just imported a schIII female with fertility issues that tied for 1st in points in last years german BSP for 25 grand, what's your point??? That's FIVE TIMES the cost. your normal imports that a lot of law enforcement uses get younger green dogs mals go for 800 up to just over a grand, a GSD of comperable age and ability will be 2000 up to 6-7grand. Strongly disagree all you want, but those are the going rates plus or minus a few hundred bucks. There is no Comparison.