White Shepherds

[NicoleLJ]

[QUOTE=jackfrost]

wow, you now so much about working dogs, yet you've never heard of a PSD, Police Service Dog...HMMMMM

PSD to me(since I am in service dogs) means Psychiatric service dogs) Service dogs for the disable is what I was talking about when it comes to my breeding program. Why would I need or want to get police dog titles on my breeding dogs when I am breeding for service dogs? Agian you make no sense. Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Nicole

[Ceph]

I dont know too much before, like I said, but I am in the military, and the kinds of service dogs the military are looking for have to be high drive....you need an animal who not only enjoys the searching but also wont give up. I am medical service corps....dogs that have a high drive and are willing to look for people for as long as possible save lives. I am hoping to train my puppy for rescue missions along that line...I think the military could sorely use a search and rescue dog with each ambulance platoon. but again, high drive = very important...

And on a second note....for christ sakes...they're all the same...the same internal workings, the same structure...some dogs will always be more high drive than others...some will be more lazy...you will see that in both WGSD and GSD. One of my Captains worked with and bred german shepherds, and his direct quote was, 'I've worked with everything but a pure black, and its pretty much ding, they're all the same.' so you can breed high drive and temperment into pretty much any animal...alot of that is dependant on the breeder....it just so happens that most of the people I know who I have mentioned the high drive/intelligence....it may just be that they are all doing something right.

Pretty much this comes down to truth and fact, we all have our own truths - what we believe is real, and then there is the fact....what we know is real....our truth is that the WGSD is awsome, yours is that it is not so much....the actual facts....we dont know for sure because there has never been any hard data or testing in a controlled situation. I actually looked for something in the Virginia Tech Journal Database...the entire database...and I could find nothing. Until there is resaearch done like that, they are all the same I guess. (mmm, that might be a good graduate thesis paper though)

[jackfrost]

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Exactly, trust me Ifeel your pain. You keep claiming they have more drive and more brains, and I said surely they'll be winning in avenues that test drive and brains, as well as temperment and nerve, but you like to skirt that every time it comes up, so we'll just leave it as that, your dogs have never been proven to work. PSD's has meant police service dog forever. In working circles you say PSD, and that's exactly what it means, my gosh do a simple google search and tell me what you get Psychiatric Service dog or Police service dog???

JackFrost, don't you think the lack of the white shepherds in these trails could just as easily be due their human counterparts' prejudice against them as it is due to any supposed defects in the dogs?

It could, but surely if they were producing such drive and temperment and structure and brains, we'd see them much more often in working circles. When good ones come along, they're notpassed over because they are white. We scoop them up as fast as we can. Fact of the matter is, there aren't very many. Mainly what you see is lots of talk and not much show.

FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds.

You could PM me as well, I may know him, but I can't say we get any requests for whites, Belgians yeah because they're cheaper, but not whites. I'd like to know what LEO's are looking for that? Besides the fact that they like the color white.

[Ceph]

I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.

and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.

[borzoimom]

I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.

and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.

yes- you are right! It is a recessive gene..

[jackfrost]

I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.

and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.

now just think about that, it IS a recessive and a recessive that was selected AGAINST till almost no whites where showing up in normal litters. So to create whites consitently, which is what white breeders do, do you think they took your average working GSD and got some whites by accident and sell them that way, or do you think they took the ever shrinking pool of GSD's with white genes left and did lots of breeding back on themselves to consistently get white??

[borzoimom]

actually I got a white out of a sable and black and tan breeding..

[NicoleLJ]

actually I got a white out of a sable and black and tan breeding..

Which is quite common.
Nicole

[Sophist]

You could PM me as well, I may know him, but I can't say we get any requests for whites, Belgians yeah because they're cheaper, but not whites. I'd like to know what LEO's are looking for that? Besides the fact that they like the color white.

Actually, my dad does not prefer the color white. When he is taking color into consideration, he tends to prefer darker dogs as K-9 units, since they tend to intimidate suspects more and since people can't pick them out as easily if they're trying to go in during darkness and all... but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.

My father has mainly selected dogs for several Sheriff's offices (which also work in the local academy), search and rescue, the county jail, a couple special "school k-9 units" that work the public schools only, and Methamphetamine Enforcement Teams.

[Sophist]

Oh, forgot to add...

I very, very, very rarely give out my surname online, so I don't think I'll be PM'ing you my dads name to see if you know him. How about you just send me the names of all the cops you know in Cali and I'll tell you if you know him .

[jackfrost]

but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

[NicoleLJ]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

I have seen some whites do some good work, just the majority of them do not pass. Its not the situation I created, its just how it is. When someone is telling me a LEO is searching for white's cause they do better work??? I wonder just where that person is coming from. Its far easier to find a GSD or mal than any of the others, and mal's are much cheaper. Nobody wants to believe me, so I sent you some links where other people that import, train, and breed working dogs, see what they have to say on that issue, then come back and tell me I'm lying.

Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.

I've done far more than read a few breeder websites to form my "opinion".

I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.

You keep saying that the gene pool is large, it is not.

YOu keep saying they have more brains and drive, yet can only show me two websites with the same dogs on them over the past 20 or 30 years and only a handful of dogs are there. Why, because that's all that have accomplished much. I've been there and see what happens.

You keep saying they have better working temperments yet they aren't overwhelming any working venue, or even represented very often?? Most people with working dogs could care less what color they are, they go to what dogs can work. You keep saying they have more drive, yet you raise Psychiatric Service Dogs? Where does high drive come in to play with that? Are you telling me that those services look for dogs with a good balance of high prey and high defense drive?? Funny cause every service dog outfit i've ever placed dogs in were all looking for lower drive dogs, EVERY ONE. When I see lip service being paid to something the finest breed in the world does, i get offended.

You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

[wolfsoul]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price.

I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

[jackfrost]

I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

and we just imported a schIII female with fertility issues that tied for 1st in points in last years german BSP for 25 grand, what's your point??? That's FIVE TIMES the cost. your normal imports that a lot of law enforcement uses get younger green dogs mals go for 800 up to just over a grand, a GSD of comperable age and ability will be 2000 up to 6-7grand. Strongly disagree all you want, but those are the going rates plus or minus a few hundred bucks. There is no Comparison.