White Shepherds

[NicoleLJ]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

Great post. There are some white breeders that do want to be able to show as a GSD. I persoanlly am agianst this. I think we should be our own breed but it is a personal choice. AS for breeding for a sounder structure that is correct. We prefer the old style look over teh problems of the so called newer style. I can't stand the bowed backs or hips that look like they are dragging on the ground.

As for whether the AKC or CanKC sees it as a fault or not is not hte point. The point is they have been around sine hte start of the breed. A pure white dog was the grandsire of the first GSD. So it has always had the color in it. It was accepted for years. Then for really bogus reason not allowed any more. The AKC took longer to fault them and the CKC took the longest. But either way there is no reason at all that anyone can state as to why they are a fault. No genetic reason, no structure reason, and certianly no reason based on what they were originally bred to do.

So I am glad in many parts they are already seen and acknowledged as a seperate breed. I hope the AKC and the CKC follow suit soon. As for the small gene pool it is not as small as you think since many many many breeders incorporate colored GSD's into their breeding programs. And as long as they are a part of the GSD breed and not a seperate bred they will continue to add the colored GSD's into their lines to increase the gene pool.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

am i talking to a wall. Max von stephanitz, you know the guy that started the breed said whites are a fault, should not be bred for and should not but used for breeding. horand had a 2generations away from a white and that white wasn't ever registered with the SV. Who cares what the AKC said, they've done nothing to improve this wonderful breed, the fact they let them be shown for so long shows me just how long they've actually thought about what they stand for. The bowed backs and hips dragging on the ground come from just such breeding stock, the kind the AKC promotes as "champions".

To get the all whites and produce them consistently they had to pair dogs with recessive genes every time, and its what was done. Seeing nobody in the beginning in Germany was breeding for whites CAUSE IT WAS A FAULT, ones that were born that way were often culled. Later, some fanciers took to them and started their gene pool from a very very small stock. White has never been desireable in the history of the GSD. SInce white is recessive you get people breeding white dogs with white dogs to get more white dogs. You didn't get accidental white dogs from good bloodlines.

If someone is breeding away from the working GSD population, then that person is breeding for color and not for the best working temperments. White GSD's are far removed from working GSD populations. They haven't been under the strict breeding requirements of the SV or other countries that continue breeding working GSD bloodlines. I haven't seen a "white" in any working venues for quite sometime. I wouldn't be using the AKC as my model to compare it too, those dogs are a less a GSD than a poodle IMO.

[NicoleLJ]

First off I take offence to teh first sentence. This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here. Just because we don't agree with you does not make what we say wrong and does not make what you say rigth. We are each entitled to our opinions. PLease keep that in mind.

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

And as for you will not find white shepherds in good bloodlines of GSD's I find that too funny. Many many many times whites are bron to two colored parents where the breeders had not known that they had teh white gene. And they came form great kennels and great lines. Whites are a part of the GSD colors. That is just the way it is.

And breeding two whites is not wrong. Genetics has proven there is not health problems caused by teh white gene. All it expresses is coat colar and that is all. Nothing else. A breed that is only one color is not unheard of either. Look at Irish Setters.

I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Show me some, give their pedigree and the venue. I open for suggestions, just haven't seen anyone in any serious working circles compete or breed to a white ever. I"ve seen some PSD's that were white, some were ok, some were not, same as any dog.

Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

OK, since maybe i'm wrong, you tell me when the SV allowed whites, and they were an acceptable color, then tell me when, if ever they've been a desireable color.

And breeding two whites is not wrong.

Never said it was, BUT when you're breeding two dogs of an unacceptable color that is bred to get away from that color, you aren't breeding the best dogs out there. It seems simple to me. As far as I can tell there haven't been whites showing up in euorpean working lines since the 30's with any sort of consistency, so for the past 70 years WHites have been bred with dogs being bred away from the working standard.

I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

I'm all for it, I would love to see them prove themselves in work as well as all GSD's should before they are bred. I'm a little sickened that our country can't have sticter breeding standards when it comes to all dogs. I have no personal agenda against white's.

This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here.

You can have your thread about White shepherds, my point is your history is innacurate, they have never been allowed and were not desired. It's not my opinion, it;s the words of the founder of the SV, the originator of the breed. Because a white was the great gransire of a foundation dog, doesn't mean much, when for the vast majority of GSD"s born or used in breeding have been used to get away from the white color, you'll have a tough time convincing me that the best dogs were used to get the white color consistently. If that were the case, you'd end up with some whites showing up sometimes, not whites showing up almost all the time by white GSD breeders, which is what you have.

[NicoleLJ]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

And here are some facts about whites:
A White was the first German Shepherd of any color to earn both a Utility Dog (U-UD) title & a Championship with the United Kennel Club.
(WGSDCII/UKC Ch. U-UD Von Tasz' Jack of All Trades, UDX, TDI, HC, OFA H&E)

The Number One ranked German Shepherd in flyball is a White.
(WSCC/UKC Ch. U-CD Crystal's Lil Pistol Von Tasz, Am/Can CD, FDGCH, WETT, DSA, NA, NAJ, HC, CGC, OFA H&E)

The first two German Shepherds to earn the Canadian Kennel Club's Urban Tracking Dog title (UTD) were both White.
(AWSA Alt Ch. Braehead's Bailey v Eis Haus, CD, Am/Can TDX, UTD, BH, FDX, HC, TT, CGC, OFA H&E, PennHIP
& Brock of Eis Haus, Am/Can TDX, UTD, FM, CD, HCs, TT, CGC, OFA)

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

What does breeding two whites have to do with not breeding the best dogs out there? If the dog has the structure, outstanding temperment, drive and so forth how do you know that dog is not the best out there? Just because it is white? That is not a good reason in my book.

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Ok, you showed me some, but its not ONE breeder's progeny, looks to be many breeders encompassing the past 20+ years or so, I'd expect the list to be 1000X's that big. But whatever.

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

They're almost the exact same dogs as in the first link, I see very little in the way of real working titles on those dogs, but I guess they're working.

I don't really care about firsts, i'm talking about consitency and real work. Flyball although fun and exciting does nothing to test the nerve courage, or temperment of a GSD which is of course the real test of the breed.

How many have achieved a TDX title since compared to other working shepherds, how many have achieved an FH or FH II title compared to the others??

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

With the amount of BYB's in the US and Canada passing off AKC registerd GSD's and real dog's, like its supposed to suprise me. Give me the dogs represented from an honest GSD breeder, and I'll take that bet any day of the freaking week.

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

OK, last time, Whites have been faulted by the SV Since the beginning, they've never been desired, they've always been selected AGAINST from the very start, except by those breeding for color. Those that breed only for color are no better than those that breed only for gait or only for extreme drives, you lose the GSD when you breed for one trait. So, since the beginning you have a color that was selected against being passed on, and you're telling me that somehow you end up with good working dogs?? OK

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

If that's what you want to believe. LSP, BSP, WUSV Herding trials, any whites win anything there??? Or even compete Don't bother, I already know the answer.

How do you breed your whites?? what titles do they have to prove their worthiness?? How does that test their nerve, their desire, their courage, their temperment? what venue do you work in??

answer or not, i'm done, i work in these fields, i've researched myself the history of the GSD, and I know what whites are and where they came from. I know what the originators said of the breed, and I know how the current breeding stock in the US came to be

[NicoleLJ]

I am just shaking my head. I answered your questions. I never said that was the whole list. That is just a tiny part of the list. But if you choose to beleive what you do go ahead. I know different. Saying just because a white breeder is breeding for color means they are not breeding for the total package is just plain wrong and laughable.

My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

You are entilted to your opinion as I am to mine and everyone else here is to theirs. I have shown in this thread that a well bred white Shepherd can do all that a stand GSD can. Which is my whole point. That is why they will be come a seperate breed.

I wonder what Irish Setter breeders or other breeders of breeds with one coat color or type would tink about your post about breeding for only one color. lol
Nicole

[borzoimom]

honey you know who I am in judging- your babies are beautiful and we will talk later okay????

[borzoimom]

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

[wolfsoul]

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole

AMEN!!! WELL PUT!

[bluebird]

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

Wow this is really exciting! I haven't been reading these discussions for very long and haven't posted very much, I mostly just read. I could tell that you know a lot about dogs but didn't know that you are a judge borzoimom. I'm hoping to get into showing too as soon as I get my German Shepherd pup and it is old enough. I have been going to dog shows with my aunt since I was a little kid, she has shepherds and Cairn Terriers. I wonder if you've ever judged her dogs and we might have met, her name is Bonnie. Maybe we will get to meet at one of the shows and you will get to judge my puppy when she grows up. That would be cool!

[jackfrost]

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.

I haven't failed to see that, my point is that White's were never a part of the GSD, they never were accepted, except here in america(funny how we have to split a breed everytime it comes to america but that's another story). Every white breeder claims it has its root's in the German SHepherd a dog known for its courage, it's nerve, its strength, its adaptability, etc. White's were never a part of that history. SO call it like it is, you have the cast offs of a noble breed used to create a white american shepherd. SO yo usee when you are making claims that white's are the same as gsd's just different colors, the rules created by the founder most defineatly have something to do with this, seeing as they've been selected against in the entire world since their beginning.

My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

If you're going to claim they work just as well and are the same as a GSD, and I see ZERO working titles with any of your dogs, your darn right it's part of the discussion. Just as with anyone breeding any working dog claiming they can work and have this and have that, and yet have never proven their dogs can do any of it. Really big pet peeve of mine. This isn't about white vs others, its about unsubstantiated claims made by breeders, it would be no different looking at an AKC show line website and seeing all these champions that have never had the courage, or nerve tested by anyone.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- just because its not an accepted color in our standard, doesnt mean they dont exist. Even in Belgiums you can get both the Terv color and the Belgium color as well. They divided the dog because of color, and not the first to do so. Also a Norfolk and a Norwich can have either in their litters to as well. My point is- color can seperate any breed, and our acceptance in the AKC doesnt make all breeds. Plenty of dogs similar in color but not accepted here yet. Like the Irish Setter in our country is only red- they can be red and white in other countries. The newly coming red and white setter will be named just that eventhough it is stilll a Irish Setter. Just because we don't honor a breed color, doesnt remove the legitamacy.