White Shepherds

[jackfrost]

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd.

I guess you missed the part about it being a fault from its inception way back when by the founders. They faulted white, the rest of the world faults a white, and just because they were show within the AKC doesn't really prove anything. WHy is the AKC standard different than the SV standard (original ruling body)?? Read the book written by the man himself, white was considered a fault back in 1925 by the man that created them, why would I or should somebody else think that just because the AKC allowed them to be shown change my mind?? THe AKC hasn't done much in the way of "building" a better GSD.

I don't really care what the reasons were, but they were cut out of breeding programs in the beginning. The reason doesn't matter, but what it created then was a very very small gene pool in which to create whites later by those that chose to go against the standard and do so. And considering the US has been propagating the AKC GSD's with a very small gene pool to begin with, their selection to get white's in this country was even smaller.

[wolfsoul]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

[NicoleLJ]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

Great post. There are some white breeders that do want to be able to show as a GSD. I persoanlly am agianst this. I think we should be our own breed but it is a personal choice. AS for breeding for a sounder structure that is correct. We prefer the old style look over teh problems of the so called newer style. I can't stand the bowed backs or hips that look like they are dragging on the ground.

As for whether the AKC or CanKC sees it as a fault or not is not hte point. The point is they have been around sine hte start of the breed. A pure white dog was the grandsire of the first GSD. So it has always had the color in it. It was accepted for years. Then for really bogus reason not allowed any more. The AKC took longer to fault them and the CKC took the longest. But either way there is no reason at all that anyone can state as to why they are a fault. No genetic reason, no structure reason, and certianly no reason based on what they were originally bred to do.

So I am glad in many parts they are already seen and acknowledged as a seperate breed. I hope the AKC and the CKC follow suit soon. As for the small gene pool it is not as small as you think since many many many breeders incorporate colored GSD's into their breeding programs. And as long as they are a part of the GSD breed and not a seperate bred they will continue to add the colored GSD's into their lines to increase the gene pool.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

am i talking to a wall. Max von stephanitz, you know the guy that started the breed said whites are a fault, should not be bred for and should not but used for breeding. horand had a 2generations away from a white and that white wasn't ever registered with the SV. Who cares what the AKC said, they've done nothing to improve this wonderful breed, the fact they let them be shown for so long shows me just how long they've actually thought about what they stand for. The bowed backs and hips dragging on the ground come from just such breeding stock, the kind the AKC promotes as "champions".

To get the all whites and produce them consistently they had to pair dogs with recessive genes every time, and its what was done. Seeing nobody in the beginning in Germany was breeding for whites CAUSE IT WAS A FAULT, ones that were born that way were often culled. Later, some fanciers took to them and started their gene pool from a very very small stock. White has never been desireable in the history of the GSD. SInce white is recessive you get people breeding white dogs with white dogs to get more white dogs. You didn't get accidental white dogs from good bloodlines.

If someone is breeding away from the working GSD population, then that person is breeding for color and not for the best working temperments. White GSD's are far removed from working GSD populations. They haven't been under the strict breeding requirements of the SV or other countries that continue breeding working GSD bloodlines. I haven't seen a "white" in any working venues for quite sometime. I wouldn't be using the AKC as my model to compare it too, those dogs are a less a GSD than a poodle IMO.

[NicoleLJ]

First off I take offence to teh first sentence. This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here. Just because we don't agree with you does not make what we say wrong and does not make what you say rigth. We are each entitled to our opinions. PLease keep that in mind.

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

And as for you will not find white shepherds in good bloodlines of GSD's I find that too funny. Many many many times whites are bron to two colored parents where the breeders had not known that they had teh white gene. And they came form great kennels and great lines. Whites are a part of the GSD colors. That is just the way it is.

And breeding two whites is not wrong. Genetics has proven there is not health problems caused by teh white gene. All it expresses is coat colar and that is all. Nothing else. A breed that is only one color is not unheard of either. Look at Irish Setters.

I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Show me some, give their pedigree and the venue. I open for suggestions, just haven't seen anyone in any serious working circles compete or breed to a white ever. I"ve seen some PSD's that were white, some were ok, some were not, same as any dog.

Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

OK, since maybe i'm wrong, you tell me when the SV allowed whites, and they were an acceptable color, then tell me when, if ever they've been a desireable color.

And breeding two whites is not wrong.

Never said it was, BUT when you're breeding two dogs of an unacceptable color that is bred to get away from that color, you aren't breeding the best dogs out there. It seems simple to me. As far as I can tell there haven't been whites showing up in euorpean working lines since the 30's with any sort of consistency, so for the past 70 years WHites have been bred with dogs being bred away from the working standard.

I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

I'm all for it, I would love to see them prove themselves in work as well as all GSD's should before they are bred. I'm a little sickened that our country can't have sticter breeding standards when it comes to all dogs. I have no personal agenda against white's.

This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here.

You can have your thread about White shepherds, my point is your history is innacurate, they have never been allowed and were not desired. It's not my opinion, it;s the words of the founder of the SV, the originator of the breed. Because a white was the great gransire of a foundation dog, doesn't mean much, when for the vast majority of GSD"s born or used in breeding have been used to get away from the white color, you'll have a tough time convincing me that the best dogs were used to get the white color consistently. If that were the case, you'd end up with some whites showing up sometimes, not whites showing up almost all the time by white GSD breeders, which is what you have.

[NicoleLJ]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

And here are some facts about whites:
A White was the first German Shepherd of any color to earn both a Utility Dog (U-UD) title & a Championship with the United Kennel Club.
(WGSDCII/UKC Ch. U-UD Von Tasz' Jack of All Trades, UDX, TDI, HC, OFA H&E)

The Number One ranked German Shepherd in flyball is a White.
(WSCC/UKC Ch. U-CD Crystal's Lil Pistol Von Tasz, Am/Can CD, FDGCH, WETT, DSA, NA, NAJ, HC, CGC, OFA H&E)

The first two German Shepherds to earn the Canadian Kennel Club's Urban Tracking Dog title (UTD) were both White.
(AWSA Alt Ch. Braehead's Bailey v Eis Haus, CD, Am/Can TDX, UTD, BH, FDX, HC, TT, CGC, OFA H&E, PennHIP
& Brock of Eis Haus, Am/Can TDX, UTD, FM, CD, HCs, TT, CGC, OFA)

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

What does breeding two whites have to do with not breeding the best dogs out there? If the dog has the structure, outstanding temperment, drive and so forth how do you know that dog is not the best out there? Just because it is white? That is not a good reason in my book.

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Ok, you showed me some, but its not ONE breeder's progeny, looks to be many breeders encompassing the past 20+ years or so, I'd expect the list to be 1000X's that big. But whatever.

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

They're almost the exact same dogs as in the first link, I see very little in the way of real working titles on those dogs, but I guess they're working.

I don't really care about firsts, i'm talking about consitency and real work. Flyball although fun and exciting does nothing to test the nerve courage, or temperment of a GSD which is of course the real test of the breed.

How many have achieved a TDX title since compared to other working shepherds, how many have achieved an FH or FH II title compared to the others??

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

With the amount of BYB's in the US and Canada passing off AKC registerd GSD's and real dog's, like its supposed to suprise me. Give me the dogs represented from an honest GSD breeder, and I'll take that bet any day of the freaking week.

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

OK, last time, Whites have been faulted by the SV Since the beginning, they've never been desired, they've always been selected AGAINST from the very start, except by those breeding for color. Those that breed only for color are no better than those that breed only for gait or only for extreme drives, you lose the GSD when you breed for one trait. So, since the beginning you have a color that was selected against being passed on, and you're telling me that somehow you end up with good working dogs?? OK

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

If that's what you want to believe. LSP, BSP, WUSV Herding trials, any whites win anything there??? Or even compete Don't bother, I already know the answer.

How do you breed your whites?? what titles do they have to prove their worthiness?? How does that test their nerve, their desire, their courage, their temperment? what venue do you work in??

answer or not, i'm done, i work in these fields, i've researched myself the history of the GSD, and I know what whites are and where they came from. I know what the originators said of the breed, and I know how the current breeding stock in the US came to be

[NicoleLJ]

I am just shaking my head. I answered your questions. I never said that was the whole list. That is just a tiny part of the list. But if you choose to beleive what you do go ahead. I know different. Saying just because a white breeder is breeding for color means they are not breeding for the total package is just plain wrong and laughable.

My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

You are entilted to your opinion as I am to mine and everyone else here is to theirs. I have shown in this thread that a well bred white Shepherd can do all that a stand GSD can. Which is my whole point. That is why they will be come a seperate breed.

I wonder what Irish Setter breeders or other breeders of breeds with one coat color or type would tink about your post about breeding for only one color. lol
Nicole

[Ceph]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad....I have heard things about how WGSD's come from a smaller gene pool, but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics. I am an equine emphasis major, and I know that the same thing applies to horses...its nature, Is the american cream draft any less of a horse because it is a different color? no, and they are beautiful horses....but I bet you that somewhere along the line they came from a recessive gene. As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs. And right now I personally think that colored GSDs have alot of problems from irresponsible breeding.

Anyway, I have a shepherd husky mix pup who I love dearly (he's actually my fathers dog at this point.) and we adopted him. I am getting ready to start looking for a WGSD puppy (female) so that next year when I have an apartment I can have her and raise her. (I have heard they are smart as whips with alot of drive, and I love that since I am highly active and a trainer - in - training.) I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for breeders on the east coast....Chapparall in ohio and white timberwolf ranch in florida seemed to be the two most likley as of now...but I would looove input on this.


I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....during the winters he kinda hung around a resteraunt and played with the customers...he was very sweet.


and here is the swiss website about these dogs (in german but lots of good pics.)

http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.ch/

Thanks all

[jackfrost]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

Maybe my comment was a little harsh, I don't think any dog is useless. I do however think there is a huge difference between a working GSD and your average dog.

I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad

Color doesn't make them bad

but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics.

and simple genetics and observation would tell you that after about 30 years of breeding gsd's White's no longer showed up in the litters. This would show that the recessive gene was very rare in the GSD population at that time. Your odds of getting two recessive parents together was very rare, and by responsible breeders studying bloodlines and pedigrees would have a pretty good guess as how to avoid breeding to those dogs because white was not desired. Since that time, you've had a small gene pool being used for at least the past 70 years.

As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs.

If you're studying genetics you might want to go over hybrid vigor again, this has nothing to do with it. But if you wanted to add some "new" blood, no responsible breeder of GSD's is going to allow their brood bitch or proven stud to breed with a white coat. So chances are you're going to be adding more unproven bloodlines.



There are big problems with the GSD especially in america. Their showlines go back to basically two dogs brought over from Germany, but somehow I"m supposed to believe White's have a large gene pool?? They had to get those white's consistently somehow, How do you think that happened? you're into genetics, think about it.

I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....

I'm sure there are some that can work, but it's not very often. It's a consistency thing, and I still love when white breeder's claim they can do everything a "regular" GSD can do, yet have no cert's or titles to show, other than CGC, TT, TDI, etc, sorry, those are fun to do, but are a far cry from being proven as working stock.

[wolfsoul]

and simple genetics and observation would tell you that after about 30 years of breeding gsd's White's no longer showed up in the litters.

Whites may not have showed up, but that was only by certain luck -- a white carrier will breed a carrier who will breed a carrier and then another carrier to breed another carrier, and so on. So there have always been carriers.

Same reason I don't know if Visa carries tervuren. It's unlikely, but still possible. Won't know until I breed her to a terv, or a terv carrier (Solo's daddy is a terv carrier -- wouldn't have have been just awful is he was the only one AND a terv! I so badly wanted a groen lol).

[borzoimom]

I got two tervs out of my belguim.. took me forever to get them right..

[NicoleLJ]

Jackfrost - My breeding program is just that, Mine. My purpose for breeding is not to produce titled dogs, though that would be great if the owners decided to do that(I will even be giving rebates to those that do title their dogs in certian venues). My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose. So I could care less whether you have a problem with that or not. Sheena and Ryder are both proven dogs in all aspects for what I hope to produce and that is what matters to me.

Ceph - Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

Sorry I haven't contributed more but I have had a busy night and day with Sheena flying to meet Ryder to hopefully produce my first litter. Which we are hoping will have 3 service dog candidates in it. So keep your fingers crossed.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Honey- you have your hands full right now. Some people just like to start something and as someone said to me " thrive on discontent.."