White Shepherds

[jackfrost]

on a side note, i've read the book written by the man himself Max von Stephanitz back in 1925 and even then he said too much white was unacceptable and white's were not desireable. I think I'll take the word right from the horses mouth so to speak on this one as to wether or not all white shepherds were ever desireable in the breed or not.

[wolfsoul]

I had a white shepherd and a white shepherd mix when I was younger. My coloured GSD had a white shepherd mother. My mix is still going on strong, living with my dad's old roomate --- just some arthritis but nothing bad. My white shepherd pup had to be PTS at 6 months due to severe panosteitis, and my GSD was PTS a couple of years ago due to cancer. Great dogs, I've always loved GSDs, no matter what colour.

From what I have read, the original reason the white shepherd was finally disallowed was due to them blending into the sheep too easily? Is this true?

Lilacdragon, there is nothing wrong with the White shepherd. While I disagree with creating "toys" and "minis" of different breeds, colour does not affect the structore or ability of a dog. It may not be recognised by AKC as a different breed (though they do have the option for white colouring on the registration papers of the German shepherd dog), they are recognised by their own registries and are able to show under those registries. UKC is nothing like the ConKC or some of the other designer registries.

It's like laekenois. They are the same breed as the other varieties, but not only does AKC seperate them into breeds, but they exclude the laekenois -- all because of coat type. Does this mean that US breeders shouldn't breed laekenois? Because they are a "genetic throwback?"

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul - great post. To answer your question no that was not the reason, that was the excuse by some. Some said they were the cause of the diluting colors(proven later to be false by genetic testing) some said it was because tehy were the cause of all teh genetic deseases including blindness and so forth(agian proven false by genetic tests) Soem gave the excuse you just stated which is because they blend into teh sheep. Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown. Because of dirt and feces and so forth. A White Shepherd like Sheena would no more blend into the flock then Luca would(our black GSD). So agian that excuse was proven false. Some also used th eexcuse that they are not stable in temperment. Well obviously that is false too. I could go on and on.

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd. It was people's opinions only that got the dog listed as a fault and they had no provable reason for doing so. That is why in several other countries they have now been listed as their own breed. There are many breeds that have seperated into seperate breeds based on coat types or colors. The white shepherd is just doing the same thing.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[wolfsoul]

Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown.

I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol.

[NicoleLJ]

I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol.

Could you imagine being th eone having to bath a herd of Sheep in full coat? no thank you. lol
Nicole

[CathyBogart]

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

[NicoleLJ]

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

Thank you so much. And no that is not a clueless question. I didn't understand genetics for the longest time either. To answer your question Sheena will be having only white puppies. Here is an easier way to look at it:

White to White will always throw white(this is what our breeding is)

White to a dark colored GSD who has a White Shepherd in its pedigree will throw both white and dark colored GSD's

White to a dark colored GSD with no White in his pedigree will only throw dark colored GSD's.

Taht is the simplest way to explain it. I hope that helps. If you have more questions feel free to ask.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd.

I guess you missed the part about it being a fault from its inception way back when by the founders. They faulted white, the rest of the world faults a white, and just because they were show within the AKC doesn't really prove anything. WHy is the AKC standard different than the SV standard (original ruling body)?? Read the book written by the man himself, white was considered a fault back in 1925 by the man that created them, why would I or should somebody else think that just because the AKC allowed them to be shown change my mind?? THe AKC hasn't done much in the way of "building" a better GSD.

I don't really care what the reasons were, but they were cut out of breeding programs in the beginning. The reason doesn't matter, but what it created then was a very very small gene pool in which to create whites later by those that chose to go against the standard and do so. And considering the US has been propagating the AKC GSD's with a very small gene pool to begin with, their selection to get white's in this country was even smaller.

[wolfsoul]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

[NicoleLJ]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

Great post. There are some white breeders that do want to be able to show as a GSD. I persoanlly am agianst this. I think we should be our own breed but it is a personal choice. AS for breeding for a sounder structure that is correct. We prefer the old style look over teh problems of the so called newer style. I can't stand the bowed backs or hips that look like they are dragging on the ground.

As for whether the AKC or CanKC sees it as a fault or not is not hte point. The point is they have been around sine hte start of the breed. A pure white dog was the grandsire of the first GSD. So it has always had the color in it. It was accepted for years. Then for really bogus reason not allowed any more. The AKC took longer to fault them and the CKC took the longest. But either way there is no reason at all that anyone can state as to why they are a fault. No genetic reason, no structure reason, and certianly no reason based on what they were originally bred to do.

So I am glad in many parts they are already seen and acknowledged as a seperate breed. I hope the AKC and the CKC follow suit soon. As for the small gene pool it is not as small as you think since many many many breeders incorporate colored GSD's into their breeding programs. And as long as they are a part of the GSD breed and not a seperate bred they will continue to add the colored GSD's into their lines to increase the gene pool.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

am i talking to a wall. Max von stephanitz, you know the guy that started the breed said whites are a fault, should not be bred for and should not but used for breeding. horand had a 2generations away from a white and that white wasn't ever registered with the SV. Who cares what the AKC said, they've done nothing to improve this wonderful breed, the fact they let them be shown for so long shows me just how long they've actually thought about what they stand for. The bowed backs and hips dragging on the ground come from just such breeding stock, the kind the AKC promotes as "champions".

To get the all whites and produce them consistently they had to pair dogs with recessive genes every time, and its what was done. Seeing nobody in the beginning in Germany was breeding for whites CAUSE IT WAS A FAULT, ones that were born that way were often culled. Later, some fanciers took to them and started their gene pool from a very very small stock. White has never been desireable in the history of the GSD. SInce white is recessive you get people breeding white dogs with white dogs to get more white dogs. You didn't get accidental white dogs from good bloodlines.

If someone is breeding away from the working GSD population, then that person is breeding for color and not for the best working temperments. White GSD's are far removed from working GSD populations. They haven't been under the strict breeding requirements of the SV or other countries that continue breeding working GSD bloodlines. I haven't seen a "white" in any working venues for quite sometime. I wouldn't be using the AKC as my model to compare it too, those dogs are a less a GSD than a poodle IMO.

[NicoleLJ]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

And here are some facts about whites:
A White was the first German Shepherd of any color to earn both a Utility Dog (U-UD) title & a Championship with the United Kennel Club.
(WGSDCII/UKC Ch. U-UD Von Tasz' Jack of All Trades, UDX, TDI, HC, OFA H&E)

The Number One ranked German Shepherd in flyball is a White.
(WSCC/UKC Ch. U-CD Crystal's Lil Pistol Von Tasz, Am/Can CD, FDGCH, WETT, DSA, NA, NAJ, HC, CGC, OFA H&E)

The first two German Shepherds to earn the Canadian Kennel Club's Urban Tracking Dog title (UTD) were both White.
(AWSA Alt Ch. Braehead's Bailey v Eis Haus, CD, Am/Can TDX, UTD, BH, FDX, HC, TT, CGC, OFA H&E, PennHIP
& Brock of Eis Haus, Am/Can TDX, UTD, FM, CD, HCs, TT, CGC, OFA)

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

What does breeding two whites have to do with not breeding the best dogs out there? If the dog has the structure, outstanding temperment, drive and so forth how do you know that dog is not the best out there? Just because it is white? That is not a good reason in my book.

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.
Nicole

[Ceph]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad....I have heard things about how WGSD's come from a smaller gene pool, but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics. I am an equine emphasis major, and I know that the same thing applies to horses...its nature, Is the american cream draft any less of a horse because it is a different color? no, and they are beautiful horses....but I bet you that somewhere along the line they came from a recessive gene. As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs. And right now I personally think that colored GSDs have alot of problems from irresponsible breeding.

Anyway, I have a shepherd husky mix pup who I love dearly (he's actually my fathers dog at this point.) and we adopted him. I am getting ready to start looking for a WGSD puppy (female) so that next year when I have an apartment I can have her and raise her. (I have heard they are smart as whips with alot of drive, and I love that since I am highly active and a trainer - in - training.) I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for breeders on the east coast....Chapparall in ohio and white timberwolf ranch in florida seemed to be the two most likley as of now...but I would looove input on this.


I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....during the winters he kinda hung around a resteraunt and played with the customers...he was very sweet.


and here is the swiss website about these dogs (in german but lots of good pics.)

http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.ch/

Thanks all