Chug anyone?

[k9krazee]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm really not pro-breeding at all...in my perfect world NO dogs would be bred (whether to create pure breds or not) until all the homeless dogs out there found a home. And to make it even more perfect PEOPLE would need to undergo tests and get special permission to bring children into this world but I know that it will never happnen.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. What exactly is the point of having a purebred dog? And why is there so much hatred towards 'designer dogs'? I used to absolutely hate the idea of creating mixed breeds...but now my take on it is if a new breed is created to do a job better (like the BorderJack, for example, in flyball) and the dogs aren't from bybs or puppymills but from responsible people and healthy dogs, what exactly is the big deal? It's exactly the same thing that happened way back when...things evolve and things change and new breeds can/will be created. I understand that most designer dogs right now are being produced from bybs, and are being sold for waaay more than they should be and I believe that THAT is wrong. Same with BYBs of purebred dogs. But I honestly don't think that breeding two different breeds together is neccessarily irresponsible.

And that's just my viewpoint on the subject at the moment...

[lv4dogs]

Anyway, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. What exactly is the point of having a purebred dog? And why is there so much hatred towards 'designer dogs'? I used to absolutely hate the idea of creating mixed breeds...but now my take on it is if a new breed is created to do a job better (like the BorderJack, for example, in flyball) and the dogs aren't from bybs or puppymills but from responsible people and healthy dogs, what exactly is the big deal? It's exactly the same thing that happened way back when...things evolve and things change and new breeds can/will be created. I understand that most designer dogs right now are being produced from bybs, and are being sold for waaay more than they should be and I believe that THAT is wrong. Same with BYBs of purebred dogs. But I honestly don't think that breeding two different breeds together is neccessarily irresponsible.

And that's just my viewpoint on the subject at the moment...

You have a point & I do agree with you.
If you are breeding a healthy dog (as in doing all the tests, etc...), screen homes, etc... AND are breeding to create a breed that can actually peform a job well or better than I think it's great. It's just too bad that most don't.

I think the point in having a purebred dog is that it is easier to keep track of their genetic problems (granted it would be the same with mixed breeds too IF we had a place to start. Many mixed breeds were bred by accident or from a byb or pm at first & their health history is unkown) and also to have a dog that is "bred" for a certain job.

Yes, I understand what you're saying, Iv4dogs and I agree for the most part but the majority of dogs that are bought or adopted today only serve the purpose of keeping their owner company and both purebred and mutts can serve that purpose well. Puppy mills and bybs don't just breed cross breeds but purebreds too.

Shelters being full doesn't have anything to do about breeding too many dogs, but breeding dogs that are ill tempered and difficult to deal with as well as people not thinking carefully through what owning a dog means in terms of responsibility and geting the dog that's right for their lifestyle. Shelters themselves add to the problem by making it very difficult to adopt a dog. I run a Chihuahua forum and one member who had experience with Chihuahuas wanted to get one from a rescue and give a homeless dog a home, she was rejected because she had young kids so she ended up buying one from a breeder. I once read and article in the paper in which the reporter said that it's easier to adopt a kid than a dog. I think the shelters should lighten up, they are rejecting too many folks who come looking for a dog.
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I also agree with you too, to a certain extent. There are still many people out there that get a purebred because of it's capability to perform a specific job. Granted yes, *most* are just companions now.
I am fully aware that BYB's & PM's also breed purebreds & I am still against them.
And yes it is mighty hard to adopt from shelters now-a-days.
Oops I am running out of time.

[Giselle]

Designer breeds are a HUGE issue with me. I can not and do not tolerate any breeder of DESIGNER breeds (I have no qualms with breeders who purposely develop a breed to perform a job or fulfill a niche in the dog world such as the Silken Windhound - I'll talk about that some more).

What is the big deal, you ask? The big deal is that dogs are among one of the most diverse species in the world, which nearly eliminates the need to create more breeds. There are literally hundreds of breeds developed to fulfill a certain job or task. It is not necessary to create more. Yes, in the beginning, there were mixed breeds but people mixed and matched contrasting breeds to create dogs who would excell at their job. Over time, these mixed breeds were carefully inbred/linebred and refined to create a distinctive breed type. They began to breed "true" to type and uniformity within the breed began to emerge. However, the creation of a breed takes purpose and passion. Most, not all, but most, designer mix breeders crossbreed their dogs as nothing more than a selling gimmick. I have not yet seen a Toy crossbreed that has more of a purpose than to provide companionship. While it is true that humans today mainly acquire a dog for companionship, it does NOT make it okay nor ethical to purposely create mixed breeds to fulfill public demand.

I devote myself to purebred Pekingeses and, as such, I find it simply APPALLING that "Greeders" have decided to take advantage of the general public's oblivion and create designer breeds out of my breed. Those greeders do not understand half the passion, tears, and labor that went into the creation and sustainment of my breed. It infuriates me to know that greeders are manipulating my breed simply to line their pockets with money. If we allow greeders to pollute our purebreeds, we lose the breed itself. Can you imagine yourself without your trusty Labrador Retriever by your side? Or what about your loyal German Shepherd Dog guarding you throughout its life? Or even that cute little Chihuahua whose temperament has been shaped over hundreds of years to produce the perfect companion? People who purposely mix breeds are shaving away hundreds and thousands of years of selective breeding. In my opinion, this is a big deal.

Now, it was mentioned that there are indeed mixed breeds which are created for a purpose. I dont know anything about JRT/Border Collie mixes (which, in my opinion, should only be available to very experienced owners...), but I do know a little something about Silken Windhounds. In the sighthound world, the only furred breeds are very *large* dogs. As such, people who like furred breeds are forced to either get a very large dog or settle for a thin-skinned, thin-coated smaller dog. That's not an option for many people as the presence of fur protects the dog from harsh weather and cuts/bruises (a very big deal in the sighthound world). Thus, the Silken Windhound emerged out of very careful breeding of Whippets and Borzois. What's most interesting about Silken Windhounds is that their creation, from the first mix to the most recent litter, has been meticulously documented. In fact, Silken breeders and owners are pushing for AKC recognition. And I am very relieved that these people chose the name "Silken Windhound" rather than "Borpit" or "Whipzoi"

[wolfsoul]

The only good reason to breed is to better a breed. Not to create more.

With the amount of dogs dying in shelters, the vast majority of them being mixed breeds, why anyone would want to create more mixed breeds is beyond me. Yes, the shelters and rescues may not have the type of mix that you are looking for -- but when you want a mixed breed, you can't be specific anyways. After all, it's getting two completely different genetics from both sides -- it's looks and characteristics won't be predicatable.

People say that mutts are healthier with less temperment problems --- but that is a complete myth. The breeds aren't the ones being bred, the two dogs in question are -- and if you have a dog that carries health problems, bred to another dog that carries health problems, then the puppies will either have or will carry health problems. Breed/s is irrelevant. The sad thing is that people who pay $1000 for a purebred show/working quality animal are more likely to pay for it's surgery -- and that is why vet statistics will tell you that more purebreds end up having surgery than mixed breeds.

With the overpopulation problem, we need higher standards. Mixed breeds are rarely created for anything other than for the sake of mixing breeds. If one wants a mutt, they should go to a shelter where 85% of the dogs are mixed breeds. Otherwise go to a reputable breeder who breeds purebred dogs.

As for designer breeds -- well this is much worse than breeding your dog to the neighbor's dog to keep a puppy, in my opinion. This is asking thousands of dollars for a dog whose purpose could be fullfilled by a purebred dog. A "chug" has absolutely no purpose. It's a pug mix with increased risk of luxating patellas and behavioural issues. It's a chihuahua mix with increased risk of breathing problems and obesity. It's INCREDIBLY rare that I ever see a purebred dog in the petshop. Because purebred dogs just aren't the "thing." Designer breeds are. They are taking away from what we already know. They are ruining hundreds of years of selective breeding. I walk into the petshop and see poo-a-poms, shi-poos, yorkipoos, maltepoos, cockaliers, cockapoos, labradoodles....the list goes on and on. All ridiculous names. All of them registerable only with unreputable registries that promote puppy mills. Our standards should be higher.

Just my opinion...I've often joked about breeding Visa to a standard poodle to create "groenendoodles" so I could sell the puppies for $2500. People often tell me I SHOULD. NO WAY.

[coco-bean]

Designer breeds are a HUGE issue with me. I can not and do not tolerate any breeder of DESIGNER breeds (I have no qualms with breeders who purposely develop a breed to perform a job or fulfill a niche in the dog world such as the Silken Windhound - I'll talk about that some more).

I devote myself to purebred Pekingeses and, as such, I find it simply APPALLING that "Greeders" have decided to take advantage of the general public's oblivion and create designer breeds out of my breed. Those greeders do not understand half the passion, tears, and labor that went into the creation and sustainment of my breed. It infuriates me to know that greeders are manipulating my breed simply to line their pockets with money. If we allow greeders to pollute our purebreeds, we lose the breed itself. Can you imagine yourself without your trusty Labrador Retriever by your side? Or what about your loyal German Shepherd Dog guarding you throughout its life? Or even that cute little Chihuahua whose temperament has been shaped over hundreds of years to produce the perfect companion? People who purposely mix breeds are shaving away hundreds and thousands of years of selective breeding. In my opinion, this is a big deal.

I just wanted to say, giselle, i am with you all the way on this! But just because i prefer purebreeds doesnt mean i wouldnt adopt a designer breed(mutt) from a shelter to give it a good home! i want to keep the breeds divided, just a preference of mine! I wouldnt buy anything BUT a purebreed lab from a breeder, as you said, it took hundreds and thousands of years to perfect these breeds, Lets keep them seperate!!!
(and this portion is too BC_MoM and my post)Thats perfectly fine, not a single person on PT thinks the exact same way as another so if i feel like i saved a life then i saved a life....to me! Cainan for example lived in complete and udder sh*t, i took him home and gave him a clean environment, and in me doing that i feel like i saved him! thats all the closure i need!!

[Giselle]

I can't say I agree with you coco-bean because I believe there is a real difference between adopting vs. buying from breeders (especially unreputable ones). You are right, however, in the sense that a life is a life and all animals deserve the best life possible. However, it is the breeder's job to determine who is a responsible owner and it is the breeder's task to create a contract that stipulates that the puppy in question will NEVER be allowed to be relinquished to a shelter. Plus, I don't believe you are honestly "saving" a life if you buy from a reputable breeder (puppy mill/BYB.. maybe). On the other hand, if you adopt an animal from a high-kill shelter, you are truly saving a dog. JMO.

And you raise a good point, coco-bean. We are not "purebred elitists". We love ALL dogs. However, many of us devote ourselves to the preservation of certain breeds. You can understand, now, why it causes such a commotion when we see our breeds being manipulated simply for the almighty dollar.

[wolfsoul]

I don't believe you are honestly "saving" a life if you buy from a reputable breeder (puppy mill/BYB.. maybe).

I agree. A puppy from a reputable breeder wouldn't need to be "saved." And when buying from a puppy mill or BYB, you may be saving that one puppy, but you are damning the lives of it's parents and the future litters they will produced. What is one life compared to hundreds?

[emc]

Wow, I didn't think my asking what a chug looked like would spark such an interesting thread. You've made a very informative post, Giselle and Wolfsoul you made an excellent point, people do tend to take better care of things that cost more. But I still feel that someone who breeds a cross or not to "standard" is not neccessarily an irresponsible breeder.

If they breed healthy dogs with good temperments and care where their puppies end up I don't see how that is contributing to the problem of homeless dogs nor do I see it as being a threat to the purebred dog. Breeders devoted to their particular breed have been breeding and honing the characteristics of the purebred for centuries all the while by the side of those who have been cross breeding and making "mutts", yet there's no clue that the purebred is on the brink of extinction. I'm not at all saying that breeding purebreds shouldn't matter, I myself have owned Chihuahuas for years, but that what should determine a good breeder is that their dogs should have the potential to make a good pet and bring their owner joy years to come.
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