I would have loved to see the Presiden'ts face after reading this....

[BOBS DAD]

I voted for Clinton. I voted for Gore. I voted for Bush jr.
I feel my vote for Clinton was my worse mistake!!!

Now, having said that: I do believe Bush is trying to do what HE feels is best for our country to keep us safe. He is in a situation where no matter what he does is going to be wrong for someone.

Lord help us when the next 9/11 happens, and as much as we don't want to think it, it will happen.

How do I know? Well for one reason, there are at this time 50 countries that hate the USA meeting in Cuba with another nation that hates us. A country only 90 miles from our coast. Believe me, they aren't planning a surprise tea party for us.

I am not sure I understand your reasoning Mom, but I am always willing to listen and consider another point of view.

Could you elaborate on why Clinton was by far your worst choice - minus the obvious tag of philanderer and womanizing? I did quite well under the Clinton administration - personally and with my business. My business took a nose dive under GWB from which we are still trying to recover (I can't really say that GW had any effect on that fact or the overall economy in Pgh - it could have very well merely been a timing/cyclic thing.) People say taxes are a big voters issue - yet, many of them, in fact - let me be frank, pretty much all of them can not "even tell me what they pay in taxes". DON'T HAVE A CLUE!!! It just comes out in their paychecks. Staunch Reublicans tell that they pay less under Republican Administrations and more under Democrats. Dems tell me they pay less under Democrats (because they are supposedly for the working man) and penalized more in the form of a higher pay/tax ratio under the Republicans. Sounds all pretty stereotypical doesn't it?

Fact is the truth lies somewhere in a clouded space in between. If you make less than 100,000.00 a year - then your tax base pretty much hasn't changed much - if at all - in the last 2 decades (that is the percentage of your annual gross paid to Federal income tax ). If you don't believe that, go back and check your income tax returns. It is very simple... just look at what you declared in earnings and see what you paid in FEDERAL income tax. Divide the larger number by the smaller and check it against who was in office. It may be a real eye opener for you.

Your savings as an under 100,000 (even as high as 150,000.00) taxpayer will come in the form of write offs and deductions. One of the biggest losses in deductions to the average working family came under the Reagan administration. It was in the form of the progressive scaling back of declarable personal interest charges (YES... this is your car, your credit cards and any other "personal" loans you may have) and it's eventual elimation. This was done in 4 years - 80%, 60, 40, 20 and GOODBYE. Kinda sneaky, cause most never saw it coming and since most people don't even understand their own tax return, they couldn't figure out why they were declaring more money earned while they did not get a raise and they were spending more on credit (credit cards).

But please check your returns. See if you pay any more or less under Clinton or Bush (by percentage of declared earnings). See if Bush "really" saved you any money or if Clinton was "really" robbing your wallet... and yes, don't forget to add that 300-500.00 dollars that you probably got back last year in the form of a tax break.

You say Clinton was your worst choice. I too voted for him. I say Bush - I also voted for him once. To me, their is no comparison. When you mention those those 50 or so countries who "hate us", why do you think they hate us??? Do you think Bush has done anything to improve those relations or exasperate them? Has he practiced any real diplomacy with any of our longtime allies (excluding England), or has he shown a Cowboylike mentality that suggested to the rest of the world - "WE DON'T NEED YOU"?

Being a strong defender of our country and standing up for our way of life doesn't mean that we need to become a rogue nation bent on forging democratic states in tribal countries. If you don't think that "whoever was in office" at the time of 911 would not have acted as swiftly and aggressively as Bush did to defend and retaliate against our aggressors, then you just aren't thinking it through. America and Americans would have stood for nothing less!!!!!!!!!! The standing President had a open invitation to attack and punish whomever was responsible and "all Americans" were standing right behind him - it was an easy if not solemn decision.

I guess I could ramble on endlessly, but I guess that my final point for now is please don't cast your vote in November with the notion that only one party or one political strategy has a lockhold on national defense - or the best way to implement it.

[BOBS DAD]

LOL! I probably wouldn't but I sure would think long and hard before I dismissed the idea. Being married to a military man, and being a veteran myself, the thought of leaving one's country is pretty serious.

I hadn't seen your quote and now after reading, I am glad that someone who is and was military personnel have made it known - and have doubted this President at the same time. Somehow, it has always been painted on 2 different canvasses.

If you think that this President and his administration have made a terrible mess of things, then you must be unpatriotic - and definitely not military material!!!

I have had Uncles and a father serve in all branches of the military with 3 of my Uncles dying in batlle (WWII and Korea). My cousins and brother served in Vietnam. Most (not all) are in agreement that we can do better than GWB as a nation and the leader of the free world!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Sorry but I do base my opinion on Clinton mainly on his womanizing while in office. If you can't trust a man to be true to his wife, you sure can't trust him to be true to his country, in my opinion, that is. Not being a man, I man have a slanted point of view on this.

As for taxes and the rest; I am so far below the poverty level I can't even see the top. Even when working 50 to 60 hours a week at an insurance co that was the best paying place to work in our town. My part of Kansas is not on the high pay end of the pay scale unless you are a CEO. Since being disabled, well, lets just say, it's not a walk in the park or happy sunsets!!! If it wasn't for my brother, I'd be homeless. I wouldn't even have a computer or Internet access.

My savings and retirement all vanished while fighting the government for my disability which I was entitled to after working for over 25 years. I started working when I was 16. I was disabled in 1995.

If you are lucky enough to have a savings and a comfortable income, I'm happy for you. My advise is to buy a home of your own because you sure won't be able to later in life if you have no nest egg, and save every cent you can. If you get to where you have to depend on Social security, you will have a very rough time of it. And it won't improve with the dinky little raises the government give you each year while giving themselfs fat $5000 or more a year raises. (and don't think they don't)

As to the other countries; we couldn't make some of them like us no matter what we do. Some of them just hate democracy. It's past that, they are after us and we need to protect our country. We can't wait until one of them launces a nuke that hits our country to be ready for it.

[LilacDragon]

I hadn't seen your quote and now after reading, I am glad that someone who is and was military personnel have made it known - and have doubted this President at the same time. Somehow, it has always been painted on 2 different canvasses.

If you think that this President and his administration have made a terrible mess of things, then you must be unpatriotic - and definitely not military material!!!

I have had Uncles and a father serve in all branches of the military with 3 of my Uncles dying in batlle (WWII and Korea). My cousins and brother served in Vietnam. Most (not all) are in agreement that we can do better than GWB as a nation and the leader of the free world!

I don't think that disagreeing with the administration makes one unpatriotic. I used my vote in the manner that I deemed right. That gives me the right to speak my mind about things that I disagree with so far as how my government does things. Our soldiers agree to defend our freedoms and they include oh, so many things. What would be unpatriotic would be if our soldiers walked away from their duty when they disagreed with the Commander in Chief. Loyalty to Country isn't about loyalty to a man - it is about loyalty to the regular people and a way of life.

My BIL was in Iraq a couple of years ago as a tank driver. He was pulled off his tank for some reason right before a mission and his tank was blown up, killing his entire crew including his best friend. He is currently retraining as Airborne. My husband just returned (he is National Guard) and was awarded a Purple Heart for an injury he recieved when his unit was fired upon in the Anbar Province.

My Grandfather's both served in WWII. My mother's father is buried in Belgium.

Oh, I was Air Force for several years, way back when I was young.

[BOBS DAD]

Lilac,

did you understand "my" post. I hope you did "not" think I was challenging you or your patriotism!!! Heavens NO - QUITE THE CONTRARY!!! I was commending you and saying that I was glad that someone like you and your family (someone with current military experience) was OK with expressing general disapproval of this administration and it's handling of many matters.

It adds a little credence to your position. It seems that many who are in complete support of GWB seem to suggest that those of us who are not - must be unpatriotic - or definitely not militray people. I just wanted to say that that is certainly not the case. That many of us have been in or have many family members involved in the military, and we can be and are patriotic. But most importantly, that we can be all of that - and still be allowed to disagree with the President's handling of our country's affairs.

And Mom...
Wow... I feel for you and your misfortunes. I know what it is like to be poor (I grew up in poverty with my family and know the pain of being looked down upon). But I can't yet understand your position on Clinton and/or Bush. I generally believe that if it were up to the GWB's of the world that you would be totally on your own. It would be up to you, your family and local charitable groups to look out for you. Forget that you worked for 25 years... that was then and this is now! GOVERNMENT needs to "get out of people's personal lives" is their mantra. ...and Oh Yeah, give people back their AK47's - cause that is important!!!

Ironically, it is the Bill Clinton's (with his own demons and vices) that believe in social programs and the payback deserved to honest, hardworking Americans who through no fault of their own, can no longer fend for themselves. As for the countries who hate us... your solution is to what... blow them up before they blow us up. Violence begets violence. Of course we need to be prudent and protect ourselves by every means imaginable, but again, GW has no unique answers to this age old dilemna.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

As for the countries who hate us... your solution is to what... blow them up before they blow us up. Violence begets violence. Of course we need to be prudent and protect ourselves by every means imaginable, but again, GW has no unique answers to this age old dilemna.

Now, I never said a word about blowing anyone up.
BUT we do need to have a stronger defense system in place where if we are being attacked, we can defend ourselves.

There used to be what was called "fail safe" where military planes were continually in the air monitoring the coasts. If there was a missile of any kind heading toward the US, they could notify NORAD (which has sense been closed down) and they could shoot the missile down. Maybe there needs to be more than one red button in the oval office. I don't know what the answer is but I do know sitting on our behinds and not doing anything is not the answer either.

As for GW, I don't agree with everything he has done. If fact when the Medicare drug cards came out, they were a nightmare. But now, the bugs are being worked out. I'm on 4 meds for my blood pressure that I couldn't afford to take without the card. So SOME things are working out right.
By the way: How can you think they want to get out of people's personal lives when they are the ones wanting to tap everyone's phone and email?)

As for Clinton, I'm sorry but if a person has the morals of an alley cat, I just don't trust them. Of course, I may be biased because both men I were engaged to, cheated on me. I don't need a cheating President too!!!
I do admire Hillary for not kicking him to the curb like I would have done. If she runs, who knows?

[Edwina's Secretary]

MOFF..the non-aligned nations (as they call themselves....dating from the Cold War...) have been meeting around the world for decades. None of them have nukes.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

If they don't have already, North Korea and Iran are awfully close to it.

Meeting around the world is different than meeting 90 miles from our shores.

[Lady's Human]

The meeting of Non-aligned nations has at least three, possibly more nations that have either nuclear weapons (India, Pakistan, North Korea), Chemical weapons (Syria, Iran) or advanced Nulear weapons research programs (Iran, South Africa(possible live nukes), Saudi Arabia).

NORAD still exists. The HQ's for NORAD is Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado. While NORAD until recently did not have any ABM capability, NORAD was in charge of warnings and communications in case of a nuclear strike. NORAD no longer has a strong alert force (budget cuts), but is still very much an active multi-service US and Canadian organisation.

The email taps are an NSA program called ECHELON, which has been in existence for at least a decade. It is not a creation of the Bush administration. When it was implemented, there was much protest, but the protest went away until recently.

The hatred of the United States in the world is not a new phenomenon. Want to get elected in South America? Run on a platform of hatred for the US. This is a legacy from US meddling in SA affairs that started over 100 years ago. Any nation that has the power the US does is going to be hated, it doesn't matter whether the country acts like a lamb or a lion. France has long had mistrust for the US. The same goes for Germany, but with the specter of the USSR looming over the horizon it wasn't safe to openly voice that mistrust. While France is a titular member of NATO, it has not participated in NATO in any meaningful way in a long, long time.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

The hatred of the United States in the world is not a new phenomenon.

What? Something that can't be blamed on Bush?

One thing about this Iraq situation, last I knew we still had a congress and they have to approve before we go into a country with the military. Or am I wrong there too? Seems it was both the senate and the house and both parties that gave the okey dokie to go in there. ?

[Edwina's Secretary]

The meeting of Non-aligned nations has at least three, possibly more nations that have either nuclear weapons (India, Pakistan, North Korea), Chemical weapons (Syria, Iran) or advanced Nulear weapons research programs (Iran, South Africa(possible live nukes), Saudi Arabia).

And to think we invaded Iraq because we THOUGHT (opps!) they had WMD.....

I still don't believe whether they meet in Cuba or Outer Mongolia makes us any more or less at risk from the meeting!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I still don't believe whether they meet in Cuba or Outer Mongolia makes us any more or less at risk from the meeting!

Forgive me! I keep forgetting you youngsters who weren't here for the Cuban missile crisis in the 60s. If you lived through that, you would understand.

[Lady's Human]

AT least meeting in Havana we can keep a close eye on them, and maybe a few nights in Havana will losen them up a bit!

[RICHARD]

LH,

I find this statement of yours to be be disingenious at best and at worst, an insult to an intelligent person's intelligence!!!

I guess some of us wont have to worry...

[BOBS DAD]

The meeting of Non-aligned nations has at least three, possibly more nations that have either nuclear weapons (India, Pakistan, North Korea), Chemical weapons (Syria, Iran) or advanced Nulear weapons research programs (Iran, South Africa(possible live nukes), Saudi Arabia).

NORAD still exists. The HQ's for NORAD is Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado. While NORAD until recently did not have any ABM capability, NORAD was in charge of warnings and communications in case of a nuclear strike. NORAD no longer has a strong alert force (budget cuts), but is still very much an active multi-service US and Canadian organisation.

The email taps are an NSA program called ECHELON, which has been in existence for at least a decade. It is not a creation of the Bush administration. When it was implemented, there was much protest, but the protest went away until recently.

The hatred of the United States in the world is not a new phenomenon. Want to get elected in South America? Run on a platform of hatred for the US. This is a legacy from US meddling in SA affairs that started over 100 years ago. Any nation that has the power the US does is going to be hated, it doesn't matter whether the country acts like a lamb or a lion. France has long had mistrust for the US. The same goes for Germany, but with the specter of the USSR looming over the horizon it wasn't safe to openly voice that mistrust. While France is a titular member of NATO, it has not participated in NATO in any meaningful way in a long, long time.

Very good post LH.

I learned somethings and got a better perspective on some of these issues!

Can't say I knew those things!!!