Mom is refusing to belive me about raw.

[GreyhoundGirl]

Is your girl a Greyhound??? I've seen your siggy countless times but never made the connection. She looks unusual in her markings.

Is your dog happy and generally healthy - as far as you and her vet can tell???

Then I would not really worry about the food she is eating. It seems to be nutritious and keeping her well. I know there are a lot of RAW Advocates here on site, but I am not sure that it has been generally "concluded" that nothing else works!

It reminds me of Human diet debates in a way. Some people are Vegetarians "and say that everything else is poisoning your system and BAD for you". Yet many meat eaters live into their 90's - just like Vegetarians. Some people eat only poultry and NO RED MEAT. Now poultry is gonna give you the Bird Flu. I say follow your best instincts and watch your dog's health... just as you would your own. If you see any signs of declining health, then consider changing her diet - adding to or taking away things.

Actually, her markings are VERY common. I have seen many pics in greyhound books thgat look EXACTLY like her. Here are some random adoptable greyhounds that looks just like her: http://www.gracanada.com/Images/gra_jun16_06/churl.jpg
http://www.gracanada.com/Images/gra_jun16_06/scram.jpg
http://www.gracanada.com/Images/gra_apr30_06/jayjay.jpg
http://www.gracanada.com/Images/gra_jun16_06/derri.jpg

And she is quite healthy, has lots of energy and appetite. ( except for the lump on her side, which still hasn't done anything )

Although her " loads" haven't been as healthy while on Iams.

[dragondawg]

Myth 1: Dogs can not get Salmonella from a Raw Diet.

Any animal can host a Salmonella bacteria. The only rate limiting factor is how in tune the species and serotype is with the host. Likewise any animal can get sick on the toxins producted by the Salmonella no matter what the serotype, or original native host.

Let's start with an article that proves there's at least one Salmonella species capable of producing an enteric infection in a dog

Salmonella infection of dog

In the second reference article The investigation was conducted at the request of a Greyhound breeder. The article does not describe the symptoms present. Wonder why a breeder would result such an epidemiology study?

Salmonella vs raw diet on a breeding farm

Note the conclusions of the study: Feeding meat that had not been cooked properly, particularly meat classified as unfit for human consumption, likely contributed to the infections in these dogs. Unless you are getting the chicken parts certified by the USDA from the store then by definition it's unfit for human consumption.

The third article did some analysis on commercial Raw dog food.

Raw sold to the public

Salmonella enterica was recovered from 17 (5.9%) samples, all of which were raw meat products.

In general the following can be concluded per typical Salmonella contamination of a raw food diet:

1. A healthy young dog may be able to readily ward off infections caused by consumption of low numbers of Salmonella.

2. An older or immune compromised dog may not be able to cope with eating salmonella infected meat.

3. No dog will be able to escape illness if they consume meat where the Salmonella have previous grown and produced toxins.

But the dangers of a raw food diet do not stop with the dog. There is a lot of discussion about the feeding of a raw diet increasing the chances of the dog passing Salmonella infections to their owners, where the very young and old are in danger.

In browsing around I ran across this article that discussed other disease agents in a raw diet. For those who believe it's ok to feed raw pork:

Aujeszky's disease

The most dangerous virus infection to be transmitted to cats and dogs via raw pork leftovers is Aujeszky's disease. The dog or cat, which is the last link in the infection chain, suffers an agonizing death.

If I were feed raw chicken to my dogs, I'd be tossing the pieces into boiling water for a couple of minutes to scald the surface contamination. But then again, I'd cook the meat period, as there's no reason not to.

[dragondawg]

I'm trying to get my mother to belive me about the gains of feeding raw. I have tried to get her to belive you countless people out there, but she keeps going on and on and on about how the best thing you can feed a dog is Iams. I found a lot of websites and threads and such, but she just won't belive me. She says things like "all these people say that they are vets and such, but for all you know they are all a bunch of wierd-os" " dogs can't live on chicken and eggs " " chicken has salmonella "

As an ex-Microbiologist I guess I qualify as one of those bonifide wierdos. Why don't you pick your favorite top 3 reasons to feed raw from lot of websites and threads and such and I'll refute em?

I'll tell ya the first thoughts I have when visiting one of the Raw sites:

1. This will be religion not science.

2. Are they selling anything connected with Raw food, or readily have links on the front page to those who do sell (e.g. receive payments for clinks on the links)? In another words do they have economic gain to make?

3. How long will it take for them to attack the medical or commercial dog food establishment, with distortions?

4. How long will it take before they dig up half truths and present it as fact with no scientific journal citations? This is rapidly followed by personal testimonials as though that justifies the claims?

There is no benefit of feeding raw over a high quality commercial dog food. If you wish to feed your dog a balanced raw diet then that is a choice being made by you. It is a human decision based on human perceptions about food. Night after night when my dogs finish their Propet dry dog food in 20-30 secs for one dog, and about 1.5 minutes for the other I do not worry too much about them liking the taste. When I ask them if they want to eat the female lets out a woo woo woo, while the male runs into the kitchen and stands by his bowl. I interpret that as a positive sign that they enjoy their food. When they come upstairs after they are done eating and proceed to come over to me for pets wagging their tails, I do not suffer any guilt for having fed them that nasty commercial dry dog food. I'll side with your mommy-person. Iams or some other high quality dog food will do just fine.

[Roxyluvsme13]

For one, Iams is not a high quality dog food. Have you seen the crap in it? Haven't countless raw feeders argued with you before? I have seen benefits from feeding Raw, and if I had the chance I would go back to it.

[cali]

There is no benefit of feeding raw over a high quality commercial dog food

tell that one to Shadow, now 10 years old after being on her deathbed at 4 years old, vets said she would notlive to be 5, she could not even stand up, rather then put her down like reccomened we switched to raw, she is currently 10 years old and showing zero signs of arthritus, her intestinal problems caused by her spay also vannished. every one of my dogs has benifited greatly from the switch. I have alos heard many people talk like you then when they ran out of ideas they tried raw and their tune changed real fast.

[Vela]

tell that one to Shadow, now 10 years old after being on her deathbed at 4 years old, vets said she would notlive to be 5, she could not even stand up, rather then put her down like reccomened we switched to raw, she is currently 10 years old and showing zero signs of arthritus, her intestinal problems caused by her spay also vannished. every one of my dogs has benifited greatly from the switch. I have alos heard many people talk like you then when they ran out of ideas they tried raw and their tune changed real fast.

I agree, raw has done wonders for my crippled dog, she's like a whole new dog. My "perfectly healthy" dog, who had no apparent health issues, also has more energy, better stools, better haircoat.

There is no benefit of feeding raw over a high quality commercial dog food. If you wish to feed your dog a balanced raw diet then that is a choice being made by you. It is a human decision based on human perceptions about food. Night after night when my dogs finish their Propet dry dog food in 20-30 secs for one dog, and about 1.5 minutes for the other I do not worry too much about them liking the taste. When I ask them if they want to eat the female lets out a woo woo woo, while the male runs into the kitchen and stands by his bowl. I interpret that as a positive sign that they enjoy their food. When they come upstairs after they are done eating and proceed to come over to me for pets wagging their tails, I do not suffer any guilt for having fed them that nasty commercial dry dog food. I'll side with your mommy-person. Iams or some other high quality dog food will do just fine.

In actuality, KIBBLE is what is perceived by humans to be dog food, if you were to put both down, most dogs would choose the meat, at least once they realized they could eat it. PEOPLE make kibble and people are the ones who decided it was the best food for dogs. So saying raw is human's perception of what a dog should eat makes no sense to say, since kibble is also a perception of what humans think a dog should eat. I don't care if someone feeds raw or not, but don't bash it just because you choose not to feed it. Nothing makes you right more than anyone else. PERSONALLY my dogs do much better on raw and the health problems they DID have, while being fed a high quality dog food, Chicken Soup and Canidae, have virtualy disappeared. If you don't want to feed it fine then don't, but that doesn't make it wrong to do and many many many dogs get nothing but great benefits from it. You can try to dispute my dog's health to me all day, but I'm the one who lives with them, so I see for myself and your "refutations" about raw feeding mean nothing to me.

[CathyBogart]

There is no benefit of feeding raw over a high quality commercial dog food. Iams or some other high quality dog food will do just fine.

When I got Jasper, I switched him to Innova EVO from what he was on, and I saw improvement....but I saw room for more improvement with the raw diet, and I've seen him go LEAPS AND BOUNDS beyond what he was like on Innova.

Iams is not a high-end dog food IMO...just reading the ingredients tells me that it's not something I'd want to feed my dog.

Try one night perhaps setting down a bowl of dog food and a bowl of beef, and see which the dogs go for.

[Glacier]

PERSONALLY my dogs do much better on raw and the health problems they DID have, while being fed a high quality dog food.

Really, isn't that what matters? It works for your dogs! We all need to do what works best for our own dogs, our lifestyle and our budget. I feed my dogs a half raw-half kibble diet. Last night they ate moose, tonight I feel lazy and they are getting kibble, a good quality kibble, but just kibble! I get told all the time that mixing them is simply terrible for any dog, but every musher I know feeds the same kind of diet and my dogs are all generally in dang good health. They have shiny coats, bright eyes, enough energy to pull a sled for 1000's of kilometres a year, ect, ect.

I have a dog who was starved by her first owner. Kayleigh weighs 108 pounds now, which is perfect for her. She was below 70 pounds when I got her. It's taken years to undo the damage her first owner did to her in other ways. She will never forget being hungry. Five years after I adopted her, she still hides food in her doghouse, just in case I suddenly forget to feed her one night! She lives alone because she'd kill another dog who got too close to her bone or anything else she thinks might be edible. Since I got Kayleigh, I find it difficult to care too much about what other people feed their dogs...Just feed them...feed them the best quality food that you can find, afford and that fits in with the rest of your lifestyle!

[Lady's Human]

My issue with many of the posts about RAW isn't with the raw diet itself, but rather with the perpetual myths that are posted in defense of it. There are possible microbial and other health issues involved, and takes a lot of research and effort to do properly.

Another irritation I have with many of the raw posts is the continuing myth that commercial dog food is bad. The evil additives that are constantly harped on are nothing more than a chemical replacements for vitamins and minerals that an animal needs for good health. Do you take vitamins? "Natural" supplements ? You're ingesting the same chemicals listed on a bag of dog food, in the saame form, with a different label. Preservatives? preservatives are present in food in such minute amounts that they have little to no biological effect. For example, (from the human side) a batch of syrup for soda contains 20 lbs of sodium benzoate. sounds like a lot, right? Not after you do the math, and figure out that that benzoate is distributed through 192000 pounds of product. It winds up in the parts per million range. How does it wind up on the ingredient list before flavoring? It doesn't take much orange oil to flavor the soda by weight. ANYTHING put into the product by the manufacturer has to be listed, which is why something that may be in the parts per million or parts per billion range is listed. Media reports showing that benzoate, for example, is a harmful additive don't give you the whole story. The amounts tested are frequently far in excess of what one would normally encounter in a diet. The most infamous example of this is saccharin. Yes, it can cause cancer. However, at the levels tested in the study that essentially pushed it off the market damned near ANYTHING would cause cancer. (It worked out to drinking 20 cases of soda containing saccharin per day for the rest of your life, IIRC. By that time you'd be in severe abdonminal distress from the acid you consumed, never mind the saccharin)

I can find studies proving that sugar is lethal (not over long term, lethal as a short term effect), water is lethal, the list could run forever. Just because it's published doesn't mean it's accurate or realistic.

False "scientific" claims drive me nuts in any form, whether involving dog food or nuclear power.

If your dog is doing well on a diet, that's fine, continue feeding it. Please don't try to push it on others or make others feel bad about what they are feeding their pet with dubious scientific claims.

[CagneyDog]

If your dog is doing well on a diet, that's fine, continue feeding it. Please don't try to push it on others or make others feel bad about what they are feeding their pet with dubious scientific claims.

I wouldn't really say that "pushing" is the right word. It's a recomendation, as are most things on a forum. You promote things that work, whether it be toys, food, kennels etc. I've learned a lot from people such as .sarah and bckrazy explaining the diet and I can't comprehend how you could see information as "pushing" it on others. After all, if you don't want anything to do with raw, don't even open the threads!

[Lady's Human]

I would say pushing is the right word. How many dog food threads asking about a good kibble have turned into a raw forum, inevitably with the comment that commercial dog food is bad?

[Kfamr]

It's not like anyone here is threatening someone if they don't feed raw. Nor does anyone look down on someone for feeding kibble. I've never seen anyone say dog food is bad. I've never seen anyone say that there aren't risks to feeding raw, however they ARE very, very slim. I believe being fed kibble there are higher risks involved.

Often times people ask what type of dog food they should feed their dogs. Raw food IS dog food, therefore people mention it and suggest it. It has worked wonders for many dog owners here, myself included.

There are times where someone has had a health problem with their dog's where a change in diet may help. Raw is often mentioned because many believe it to be the best we can provide for our dogs, again, myself include.


I for one am quite sick of false information being spread about raw and so-called "high quality" dog foods. There is not a bowl dog food out there that will reach the nutritional value of a bowl of raw food - wether your dog enjoys it or not.



As for the OP, stick in there.
When you become financially supportive of yourself and your dog, look into it. Until then, research, research, research!!

[Lady's Human]

I've never seen anyone say dog food is bad

followed by....

I for one am quite sick of false information being spread about raw and so-called "high quality" dog foods. There is not a bowl dog food out there that will reach the nutritional value of a bowl of raw food - wether your dog enjoys it or not.

Nuff said.

or

For one, Iams is not a high quality dog food. Have you seen the crap in it?

Or from a thread asking about a good kibble....

Why not feed her raw , its like people food and better for her.

Raw is like a religion. Not suported by science, but it's impossible to convince the true believers that there's another way.

[CagneyDog]

I for one am quite sick of false information being spread about raw and so-called "high quality" dog foods. There is not a bowl dog food out there that will reach the nutritional value of a bowl of raw food - wether your dog enjoys it or not

Perhaps you just don't understand raw vs. kibble. She did not say that Kibble was bad, she said that it would not reach the nutritional value of raw. This is a fact.

For one, Iams is not a high quality dog food. Have you seen the crap in it?

This is also a fact. Iams is not good dog food. She never said, all dog foods are crap?

I'm a little confused and I think you're reading in to this too much.

Not suported by science, but it's impossible to convince the true believers that there's another way.

The funny thing is that most of the true believers started, switched, and saw the great changes.

[Kfamr]

You aren't proving anything here. Not one time have I said kibble is bad, neither were any of those statement implying that. Maybe you comprehend them different than intended.

Yes, Iams is not a quality kibble. Will a dog live off of it? Of course! And I'll live off of McDonalds.

You keep saying raw is a religion, therefor dry dog kibble is a religion too. I do not need anyone's scientific opinion to see the improvement in my animal's health.