Showing and breeding

[wolfsoul]

I feel its not the Championship status but the Pedigree line of Health and temperment that should be considered. Unfortunately there are plenty of Showers out there that have an unhealthy line but the dog is beautiful.

I completely agree! Since you breed collies, maybe you can help me --- I know a collie breeder. Now from her website you would think she is great because all of her 6 dogs are champions and most of them have several performance titles too. However, 2 of her dogs have collie eye anomaly, 4 are MDR1 carriers, and a couple of them have mild micropthalmia. I know that some things are not issues to a breed, like a Belgian with PPM can be bred because it doesn't cause sight problems in that specific breed. But isn't CEA a bad thing for collies? Should these dogs really be bred?

[MajesticCollies]

Absolutely not. I would never breed knowingly having CEA in the line. You can have a litter of eight and one pup carry the CEA gene. Sell that puppy to a person that wants a forever loving pet, They see the development down the road and what does that do to your reputation. its all over the Collie world and everyone talks. Unfortunately show people can be your worst enemy. If they find something out its all over in no time. Like the lady with the bloat in her lines, She has a real hard time selling Show quality dogs now. Now she reverts to lying to potential pet owners about her health line.
There are so many tests that cost so much money to prepare for a female or male to breed. A lot of people are not aware of the preparation and study it takes to breed. I have people in the area wanting to Stud with Steele alot and I hand them the list of priorities and tests that thier Bitch needs to have and tell them I want a copy of all results when they are finished. I never hear back from them for some reason. lol Some say "I never knew you had to test for that on my female, WHY?" They just don't understand what they are doing and think about all the unwanted dogs out there and they want to add to it. On my last litter i had a waiting list of 8 people and had eight pups that survived. 1 person backed out and now I still have one preciuos boy left. He will remain until I find the right person that will properly love him. I have already turned down 5 buyers. I'm pretty paticular on my 4 page application on who gets a Collie I guess. And the puppy? well I just work and train him as he was one of my own that would stay a lifetime. Sorry I got off the subject.
The MDR1 Gene is not as much as a threat if you know your Collie has it. The herding group has seemed to contract this gene more than others here lately. I will admit I have not had all my Collies tested for it but I don't take chances with meds such as Heartworm. I go straight for the Interceptor instead of Intervectim just to be safe. My Smooth Collie has Rabies Vaccinosis and he is never givin a rabies Vac. Instead he gets a yearly Titer Test that costs me $130.
Its kind of crazy how people think lesser of thier dogs as they do humans. We have tests for health reasons why wouldn't we do it for our dogs?

[wolfsoul]

This breeder definatly does have a bad reputation, but I guess this only results in "dog people" not buying from her. When it comes to the general public, they have no warning. I didn't know she was no good until my dog came back from a show with her, absolutely terrified and never the same in a show setting. Visa was never the most outgoing dog in the first place since she had parvo as a puppy and lacked socialisation, but it took months of socialisation just to get her back to where she was, and even more months to make her perfectly socialised. Imagine the time I could have saved. When I talked to more people I found out that she is quite the abusive lady and has even been disqualified because of it. It's then when I took a look at her website and saw that her dogs haven't passed their health tests with good results. She admitted to me herself that her dogs are micropthalmic. But she is a top handler and travels all over Canada and the states showing dogs, and her dogs are all champions, so people think she's good.

I'll be studding my male when he's old enough, and I'm sure I'll occasionally find myself in the same position as you -- people just wanting to have puppies, not understanding the qualifications the female must have. But most "novice" Belgian breeders learn quick -- they certainly aren't as easy to sell as most breeds. The only reason most people get one is the "rare" factor behind them. And that's the only reason most people breed them too. There is a breeder here who breeds longhaired black GSDs as Belgians. I won't be surprised if they ask me about stud service one day.

[IRescue452]

I thought you needed 15 points to get a championship? And to do so would take any number of shows, more points are awarded for a big show, less for a small show. I didn't know that one show could do it. Are there actually shows where you can get 15 points? I think shows should only go up to 3 points because then you know that a champion was looked over by at least 5 judges. I guess with a breed win, a group win, and a show win, you could have 15 points, but that's near impossible. What kind of fantasy world do you have to live in to get a championship in one show? A new dog is going up against seasoned showers, I'd expect it to take 30 shows. So long as several judges have looked over your dog and they have their health certified, then I think its safe to say the dog is good enough to be bred.
I also think judges need to be more stirct. If the whole group isn't up to par, don't put anyone up. Tough crap for them. Some show I watch when I see the group enter the ring I immediately wish the judge would just send them all out without a win.

[wolfsoul]

In the US, you need 15 points and two majors.

In Canada, you need ten points.

It really isn't a fantasy world to get a CH in one show -- Visa got 5 points on the second day of the show but wasn't there for the first and third day. If she was, I have no doubt in my mind she would have gotten another 5 points and had her Can CH. She beat out Specials, both males and females.

Since one show will usually last three days, it's very possible to get both a Canadian or American championship in just one show.

A dog doesn't need to make a breed OR a group win to aquire points.

[MajesticCollies]

I would say it is impossible to get all 15 points in one show. Lets see You get 1 point for each win. Best of class, best of sex, best of Sex dog/Bitch combined, best of group, best of breed. 5 points max in an all breed show. Long weekend to win it all. lol A great handler can probably finish your dog in 5 to 6 shows if he meets all standards. There is a lot of politics between judges and handlers unfortunately. Like me, if I show Steele against lets say a renound John Buddie, I wouldn't stand a chance cause I'm still a novice in the show world. Although I have a John Buddie Tartanside Collie they wouldn't recognize my name. All politics.

[wolfsoul]

Maybe it's different in the US then -- I've met plenty of Canadian dogs who've gotten their Can CH in one weekend, but only one dog who did it in the US.

[critter crazy]

I do not breed or show. I have only ever owned rescue dogs. If I could tho, money permitted I would love to show Great danes, maybe a retirement job for me??? But anyways, i have no clue whether being a champ would make a difference!

[Suki Wingy]

I pretty much agree with you Jordan. I used to think breeding a dog without a title was a sign of a bad breeder, but I've since learned much more. What if you have an awsome dog just doesn't like to show but loves to work? Some kind of title proving the fact that they are good workers is a bonus.

[lute]

i think a Championship title can mean that you have a very nice dog conformationaly. it CAN. it doesn't always. i have seen so many sibes and danes that have CH titles, but they don't have good conformation. sometimes it takes YEARS for a dog with great conformation to get it's Championship. it all depends on the owner, judges, the amount of dogs you compete against and your dog. if you have terrible handling skills and did a bad job grooming it doesn't matter how good the dog's conformation is. you more than likely won't place. the way you present the dog makes a world of difference. just by stacking the dog wrong you can make minor faults more visible and make it look like there are faults that aren't really there. if you handle and groom the dog well you can make a terrible dog look good in the show ring.

as for breeding i think it looks better if the pups come from CH parents. but it's not a must have. it can be hard to finish some breeds. maybe the dog is an odd color for the breed, but still showable. a lot of judges won't put up a white or pie bald siberian husky. because of it's color pattern. the dog has a harder time finishing. i think that if the dog has good conformation, temperment, passed all of the genetic tests, etc it would be ok to breed the dog.

[K9soul]

There is a lot of politics between judges and handlers unfortunately. Like me, if I show Steele against lets say a renound John Buddie, I wouldn't stand a chance cause I'm still a novice in the show world. Although I have a John Buddie Tartanside Collie they wouldn't recognize my name. All politics.

This is the biggest reason we had to stop showing my RB collie Willie when I started going to college. He only needed one 3 pt major to finish, but any big shows required traveling and hiring a handler since a lot of the judges just will not pick a novice in the ring even if their dog is the best. Unfortunately in the conformation world (at least in the U.S), a CH in front of the name doesn't always have value. I saw some pretty crappy collies conformation-wise that got fast championships because the owners could afford to hire top handlers and send the dog to show after show until they got it. I really enjoyed showing Will and watching him win, but I hated the politics of it and came away from the show world somewhat disenchanted. If I got involved in an activity with a dog again in the future (which I hope to), it will probably be obedience, agility or something along those lines. I'd still love to go to shows and watch them though.

[Iilo]

[QUOTE=MajesticCollies]I would say it is impossible to get all 15 points in one show. Lets see You get 1 point for each win. Best of class, best of sex, best of Sex dog/Bitch combined, best of group, best of breed. 5 points max in an all breed show. Long weekend to win it all. lol [QUOTE]

Actually, though five-points is the max at an all-breed show, it isn't 1 point for each class, sex, etc win. Winner's dog and Winner's bitch get the points, if I remember right (it's 12:01 in the am at the moment). The amount of points distributed goes through a point schedule, which depends on both how many dogs of that breed/variety are at the specific show and the location of said show. Thus, with large four-day cluster shows, a great (or not so great) dog, and a GREAT (and maybe politically advantageous) handler, you could easily finish a championship as long as there were different judges.

[wolfsoul]

Iilo, that is the impression I am under as well. Also, a group placing dog that places over another breed will get more or less points depening on how many points the dog it beat had. Atleast that is how it work in Canada.

What if you have an awsome dog just doesn't like to show but loves to work?

That's a good point -- that's why Visa doesn't have her CH yet. After the experience with the handler we've only done a sanction match, and judging by her behaviour there, she still wasn't ready for another point show. Because she is competing in agility now and can do both agility and conformation in one show, we won't have any more issues, thankfully (She doesn't love show atmosphere, but when there is agility involved... ). But that is why Visa took the year off --- if she backs off the judge, she can be disqualified, and then we wouldn't be able to particpate in ANY CKC events. Why corrupt our sporting career because one lousy show? I know my dog has a gorgeous conformation and I know she will get her CH when she is ready.

My friend and I were on the topic of breeding unshown dogs. She grew up breeding shelties. Her mother had several females she called "brood bitches;" Dogs that would never make it in the showring but that produced amazing puppies. We have to remember that it isn't just the dog going into the puppies -- it's the line.

But is one ugly dog out of a beautiful litter from beautiful parents considered a genetic weakness that shouldn't be bred from? Or a fluke that may produce dogs as wonderful as it's littermates and it's parents. I often think --- I wouldn't breed a dog with excellent hips out of a litter of fairs. But I would breed a dog with fair hips out of a litter of excellents. Some people think that the one fair dog is just a fluke that can produce dogs with excellent hips like it's littermates. Others think that the excellent dog out of the fair litter has surpassed genetic weaknesses and should be bred from to further improve that line. I am unsure, but I think I'd rather breed a conformationally incorrect dog out of a litter of correct ones, than a correct dog out of a litter of incorrect ones. I think health and conformation go both ways.