Showing and breeding

[Iilo]

Jordan,

I admit to skimming your post, but I think I got the jist of it.

Personally, I look for a breeder who actively shows their dogs as well as works them. I *highly* prefer that a dog be finished before it is bred, but I also automatically ask how long, how many shows, etc did it take before he/she got her championship -- usually breeders will just out an out TELL you, but if they don't I ask, and usually it's bad news rather than good.

A lot of it comes down to knowing your breed well enough to know if it's going to be a good breeding or not, and then you're still flying on a wing and a prayer. If I -cannot- see the dogs in person and get my hands on them and watch them move, I usually just plain will not consider that breeder. The exception being a thorough lookthrough of the shows it has been to, under which judges, and how fast, under what kind of showing (EVERY weekend, or limited), it finished as well as how old it was when it finished. If I can't see the dogs in person, I would probably not consider getting a puppy from the breeder unless a) I know the dogs well or b) the dogs are finished AND live up to my expectations.

Of course, this is all just structure wise. There is so much more that comes into play when you're choosing a puppy.

[wolfsoul]

and watch them move

Completely agree --- movement is so important to me! If I can't see the dog myself, I ask to see pictures of the dog moving or ask others who have seen the dog how it moves.

To me having a confirmation title is one way to 'know' that the dog fits the breed standard. Yes, people can cheat, but we have to hope that most people are into dogs to better their favorite breed.

To be honest, I've never met a single show person who doesn't somehow alter the dog's appearance. And I've met ALOT of people. It certainly isn't always cheating -- I can think of very few alterations that are illegal.

[PinkSunshine]

I am 100% totally against byb's and puppy mills.

IMO a byb is someone who doesn't show their dogs, doesn't do health testing, doesn't breed to 'improve' the breed, breeds mixed breed dogs, breeds just for profit, ect... (ANY ONE of those things will make someone a BYB IMO)

People who breed without a 'mentor' (when they're first starting out) is also someone who I wouldn't support. In order to do things 'right' it's best to have someone there who knows what they're doing, who can help you make as little mistakes as possible.

In order to improve the breed you must breed superior dogs. Dogs that pass all health testing, dogs that are of standard, dogs that have great temperments, ect. Getting a dog titled doesn't gurantee a superior dog (I've seen many dogs that are CH. titled dogs that I think shouldn't be bred) but it sure shows work on your part and shows that the dog (in most cases) fits the standard.

I think a dog should be bred ONLY when the dog fits all the above 'standards.' A CH. titled dog with a poor temperment shouldn't be bred. A dog with a great temperment but has never been shown to fit the standard shouldn't be bred.

You need the whole package to produce quality pups, IMO. And there's really no other reason to breed, if it isn't to produce quality pups.

[MajesticCollies]

I feel its not the Championship status but the Pedigree line of Health and temperment that should be considered. Unfortunately there are plenty of Showers out there that have an unhealthy line but the dog is beautiful. I know of a breeder (no names) that has her dogs get thier CH but she knows that there is Bloat in the line and still breeds them. These people have had one dog drop over dead from Bloat at the Nationals but still continue to show and breed this line. I don't think it is a must thing to have your CH to breed but helps the reputation of the breeder and they can ask more $ most of the time if the parents are both Champions. Unless you know the difference of the breed standard of show quality versuses Pet quality, its all in the pricing. Then of course I have never profitted from a litter, only enjoy doing it ever so many years if I know it will benifit the standard of health for the breed.

[wolfsoul]

I feel its not the Championship status but the Pedigree line of Health and temperment that should be considered. Unfortunately there are plenty of Showers out there that have an unhealthy line but the dog is beautiful.

I completely agree! Since you breed collies, maybe you can help me --- I know a collie breeder. Now from her website you would think she is great because all of her 6 dogs are champions and most of them have several performance titles too. However, 2 of her dogs have collie eye anomaly, 4 are MDR1 carriers, and a couple of them have mild micropthalmia. I know that some things are not issues to a breed, like a Belgian with PPM can be bred because it doesn't cause sight problems in that specific breed. But isn't CEA a bad thing for collies? Should these dogs really be bred?

[MajesticCollies]

Absolutely not. I would never breed knowingly having CEA in the line. You can have a litter of eight and one pup carry the CEA gene. Sell that puppy to a person that wants a forever loving pet, They see the development down the road and what does that do to your reputation. its all over the Collie world and everyone talks. Unfortunately show people can be your worst enemy. If they find something out its all over in no time. Like the lady with the bloat in her lines, She has a real hard time selling Show quality dogs now. Now she reverts to lying to potential pet owners about her health line.
There are so many tests that cost so much money to prepare for a female or male to breed. A lot of people are not aware of the preparation and study it takes to breed. I have people in the area wanting to Stud with Steele alot and I hand them the list of priorities and tests that thier Bitch needs to have and tell them I want a copy of all results when they are finished. I never hear back from them for some reason. lol Some say "I never knew you had to test for that on my female, WHY?" They just don't understand what they are doing and think about all the unwanted dogs out there and they want to add to it. On my last litter i had a waiting list of 8 people and had eight pups that survived. 1 person backed out and now I still have one preciuos boy left. He will remain until I find the right person that will properly love him. I have already turned down 5 buyers. I'm pretty paticular on my 4 page application on who gets a Collie I guess. And the puppy? well I just work and train him as he was one of my own that would stay a lifetime. Sorry I got off the subject.
The MDR1 Gene is not as much as a threat if you know your Collie has it. The herding group has seemed to contract this gene more than others here lately. I will admit I have not had all my Collies tested for it but I don't take chances with meds such as Heartworm. I go straight for the Interceptor instead of Intervectim just to be safe. My Smooth Collie has Rabies Vaccinosis and he is never givin a rabies Vac. Instead he gets a yearly Titer Test that costs me $130.
Its kind of crazy how people think lesser of thier dogs as they do humans. We have tests for health reasons why wouldn't we do it for our dogs?

[wolfsoul]

This breeder definatly does have a bad reputation, but I guess this only results in "dog people" not buying from her. When it comes to the general public, they have no warning. I didn't know she was no good until my dog came back from a show with her, absolutely terrified and never the same in a show setting. Visa was never the most outgoing dog in the first place since she had parvo as a puppy and lacked socialisation, but it took months of socialisation just to get her back to where she was, and even more months to make her perfectly socialised. Imagine the time I could have saved. When I talked to more people I found out that she is quite the abusive lady and has even been disqualified because of it. It's then when I took a look at her website and saw that her dogs haven't passed their health tests with good results. She admitted to me herself that her dogs are micropthalmic. But she is a top handler and travels all over Canada and the states showing dogs, and her dogs are all champions, so people think she's good.

I'll be studding my male when he's old enough, and I'm sure I'll occasionally find myself in the same position as you -- people just wanting to have puppies, not understanding the qualifications the female must have. But most "novice" Belgian breeders learn quick -- they certainly aren't as easy to sell as most breeds. The only reason most people get one is the "rare" factor behind them. And that's the only reason most people breed them too. There is a breeder here who breeds longhaired black GSDs as Belgians. I won't be surprised if they ask me about stud service one day.

[IRescue452]

I thought you needed 15 points to get a championship? And to do so would take any number of shows, more points are awarded for a big show, less for a small show. I didn't know that one show could do it. Are there actually shows where you can get 15 points? I think shows should only go up to 3 points because then you know that a champion was looked over by at least 5 judges. I guess with a breed win, a group win, and a show win, you could have 15 points, but that's near impossible. What kind of fantasy world do you have to live in to get a championship in one show? A new dog is going up against seasoned showers, I'd expect it to take 30 shows. So long as several judges have looked over your dog and they have their health certified, then I think its safe to say the dog is good enough to be bred.
I also think judges need to be more stirct. If the whole group isn't up to par, don't put anyone up. Tough crap for them. Some show I watch when I see the group enter the ring I immediately wish the judge would just send them all out without a win.