Breeding

[Suki Wingy]

Yes, under the name Longfellow. I wish to dedicate my life to producing sounder, healthier, typeir, friendlier, clowning dogs. My goal is to have almost every dog I produce be able to excell at road working and conformation, have reliable temperaments, all be bilateral (hearing), have excelent pigment, and for a line that breeds through. I want people to say, "That's a Longfellow dog!" just by seeing one.

[Giselle]

I really don't think it's about Breed worthy,My Breeder on which i purchased Maggy from hung his Jacket up.There has been lots of requests for the herding dogs,he just mentioned it to me she has good working lines in her,Now im not sure if i'm going too,But these dogs are amazing they have great temperment,there hard workers,(what these people want)Now i never said i was going to just something that has been run by me,And it is totally not up too me it will be my Husband,He don't work full time and i do.I really have no time and since he has been hurt,he can no longer work due to his condition..But if i was to go ahead it would not be to breed just to breed,I have done it before never had complaints im set up have a kennel have the room,have the money to get these dogs shots etc etc.I'm not irresponsible my dogs have only the best.

Okay, I don't want to get emotional but I want to scream out of frustration and envy every time I hear of these "I guess I'm going to breed", "We're thinking about breeding but...", "I think I want to breed..." comments. The decision to bring numerous lives into this world should be well thought out and planned in advance!!!

People breed because they LOVE THEIR BREED. They do it out of pure passion! They dedicate their lives for the procreation of a breed that they have sacrificed everything for. When I hear comments like, "Yeah, I guess we're gonna breed her after the vet gives an okay", I want to scream because they're tricking themselves into a false sense of security. Just because you go through all the vet visits and your vet gives you an okay to breed, it DOES NOT give you a license to introduce new lives into an extremely overpopulated world.

Your vet is only there to secure the life of your dog. He does not care whether your dog is mixed, pure, titled, etc. He doesn't know what pedigree your dog came from. He doesn't know whether or not your dog is a carrier of genetic diseases. He can't give you his opinion on the ethics of your breeding plans. That's YOUR job. Quite frankly, I don't think many people realize the work and passion that is put into these breedings.

Why do I envy the aforementioned "breeders"? I envy them because they get to breed without going through any of the pains that I did. I spent countless hours simply studying the history of my breed, studying names that I've never heard of so that I may appreciate the modern Pekingese. I woke up in the wee hours of the morning to drive to dog shows so that I may see which kennels were producing which dogs and which dogs were "type-y". I spent weeks and months understanding what type was! I envy those who can breed without going through the pains that I did. At the same time, I pity them because they are going to be blamed for the introduction of new lives that will very likely end up unwanted. And yet, despite all the labor that I went through, I still am not fit to breed.

*sigh* People... just leave breeding to those who are REALLY passionate about it and know what they're doing.

[bckrazy]

I completely agree with you, Sophie!!! Completely!

Lori Jordan, I'm not trying to be negative. I'm only honest with my concerns. I am in love with Border Collies. I have fostered a BC puppy, I have a BC, and I help out at BC Rescue events every summer. I see *countless* Border Collies who CAN work, who probably have good working lines, and who are sweet dogs, who die in shelters or cannot find a suitable working home because of the excess breeding of this breed. Please, for your dogs sake, at least get her hips tested and the same for the sire... hip dysplasia is running rampant in the breed, even in young dogs who seem ok. For a real working rancher, a dog with some working lines doesn't mean crap. If the dog does not work daily, has titles, has clearances, and is proven, the dog is not suitable for breeding - period. I've been around enough dedicated working dog people to know this as a fact. If you/your husband wants to breed her that badly, at least put fourth the effort to get her HIC and get her into herding lessons to prove her ability. I would never consider breeding a Border Collie unless they had exceptional drive, eye, and working ability, exceptional conformation, very biddable and a great temperament for the breed. Of course the necessary time, space & money is needed, but to breed healthy pups you need more than "shots". If everyone who could afford shots and a kennel bred their friendly dogs with "good lines", imagine the MILLIONS more homeless dogs that would be in this world. Gonzo is registered & has notable lines, has been through more herding & dog sports than your bitch has, and has decent conformation... does this mean I should've bypassed neutering him and bred him? No. Why? Only the best, of the best dogs need be bred when 4-6 million die every year. I do not consider him exceptional for his breed, at all. By exceptional I mean able to work all day, able to independently work livestock out of range of the handler, able to trial & take on unexpected events in training or on their own property, beautiful structure and excellent hips & elbows, superb, confident, loyal temperament that is called for in the breed, and superior intelligence that allows them to go from herding to flyball to obedience to hanging out with their family. Imagine if everyone just bred their dogs based on lineage. Sure, it's an indicator, but the only real indicator is working the dog yourself and proving she works like a Border Collie; which is most important in the breed, that they work like a BC should. If everyone bred based on lines alone and not working merit, how many dogs with poor drive (such as chasing instead of circling) would end up being bred, or dogs with no eye or dogs with very little drive at all? I also hope you'll be selling pet pups on spay/neuter & return contracts.

That is being honest & up front about the problems facing our country and what responsible dog owners NEED TO do about it, if it seems "negative", well, overpopulation and backyard breeding isn't exactly a positive thing.

[cloverfdx]

No never, i have no desire to add to the canine population.

I'd say yes we might be breeding Maggy in the spring

What working experience has Maggie had? having come from good working lines does not mean much.. My Elvis comes from some awesome working lines and does not work that well (Probably lack of time on my part aswell). There are so many wonderful working dogs being PTS every single day.

And then there are the people who are passionate about their working dogs and improving working ability, they put their hearts and souls into what they do.

If you are serious get out there and get Maggy working, go buy her a farm and then consider it .

[Vela]

I completely agree with you, Sophie!!! Completely!

Lori Jordan, I'm not trying to be negative. I'm only honest with my concerns. I am in love with Border Collies. I have fostered a BC puppy, I have a BC, and I help out at BC Rescue events every summer. I see *countless* Border Collies who CAN work, who probably have good working lines, and who are sweet dogs, who die in shelters or cannot find a suitable working home because of the excess breeding of this breed. Please, for your dogs sake, at least get her hips tested and the same for the sire... hip dysplasia is running rampant in the breed, even in young dogs who seem ok. For a real working rancher, a dog with some working lines doesn't mean crap. If the dog does not work daily, has titles, has clearances, and is proven, the dog is not suitable for breeding - period. I've been around enough dedicated working dog people to know this as a fact. If you/your husband wants to breed her that badly, at least put fourth the effort to get her HIC and get her into herding lessons to prove her ability. I would never consider breeding a Border Collie unless they had exceptional drive, eye, and working ability, exceptional conformation, very biddable and a great temperament for the breed. Of course the necessary time, space & money is needed, but to breed healthy pups you need more than "shots". If everyone who could afford shots and a kennel bred their friendly dogs with "good lines", imagine the MILLIONS more homeless dogs that would be in this world. Gonzo is registered & has notable lines, has been through more herding & dog sports than your bitch has, and has decent conformation... does this mean I should've bypassed neutering him and bred him? No. Why? Only the best, of the best dogs need be bred when 4-6 million die every year. I do not consider him exceptional for his breed, at all. By exceptional I mean able to work all day, able to independently work livestock out of range of the handler, able to trial & take on unexpected events in training or on their own property, beautiful structure and excellent hips & elbows, superb, confident, loyal temperament that is called for in the breed, and superior intelligence that allows them to go from herding to flyball to obedience to hanging out with their family. Imagine if everyone just bred their dogs based on lineage. Sure, it's an indicator, but the only real indicator is working the dog yourself and proving she works like a Border Collie; which is most important in the breed, that they work like a BC should. If everyone bred based on lines alone and not working merit, how many dogs with poor drive (such as chasing instead of circling) would end up being bred, or dogs with no eye or dogs with very little drive at all? I also hope you'll be selling pet pups on spay/neuter & return contracts.

That is being honest & up front about the problems facing our country and what responsible dog owners NEED TO do about it, if it seems "negative", well, overpopulation and backyard breeding isn't exactly a positive thing.

You voice this very well, and I agree with you, unfortuantely you are wasting your breath=(

[lute]

bckrazy, i agree with you 100%!!! you said that very well!

Giselle, VERY well said! it takes A LOT to breed right and it's not something you can just hop into. i too have researched and gotten up at the wee hours of the morning just to go "watch" a breed ring. not compeat. while my family moved to IN i stayed in TN to help welp a litter of puppies to further my knowledge. most siberian people ask me why i'm getting Gracie spayed. they say i can still get a nice litter out of her. i don't want to have my first litter from an unshowable dog. i also think i have a lot more to learn before i breed any dog.

hopefully Lori Jordan or anyone else will take what you've both said into consideration.

[Lori Jordan]

She may have a good temperament and you may take good care of the puppies, but I still don't think you should breed her. Yeah, she's cute, but you don't even show her or anything, do you? What better would she bring to the breed besides temperament?

I think that was an ignorant remark,She is in flyball and agility,here in Canada Border Collies,are not really show dogs to begin with.A dog does not need to be a show dog to be qualified to breed.And what would she bring to the breed,she is a hard working dog it's in her i have never trained her to herd,I let her out in my Dad's field you should of seen what this dog can do it's in her,And it really don't matter whether you think this or not not one of us would have our dogs if they were not breed,What i choose to do should not be turned into negativity.I like how some get good replies on Breeding and i get NO NO NO.

[Lori Jordan]

I have not once said anything about not loving the breed obviously i do or i would not have 2 border Collies,I think when someone mentions something as big is this if they have nothing positive to say they should leave the subject alone,I have seen others in this thread that have been breeding and get pats on the back.
As i said it's in my husbands hands not mine so don't judge me.And if he chooses i ain't going to Bash him for it,I have been in this before we both know what we are doing,And as too the vet checks,i realize and know what to do i guess people have not been reading what i have been writing i would never put my Maggy in harms way.

[Lori Jordan]

Maggy and the stud dog have both been cleared,She will be going in again before breeding is even an option some people do not realize i've done this before.........I know what i'm doing

[k9krazee]

Oh! Maggy is in flyball and agility! I did not know that! Does she have any titles?

[bckrazy]

"I really don't think it's about Breed worthy"

From that, I understandably got the idea that you were breeding her without proving her as worthy of passing on her genes. Please do explain further next time, so that there is no need for anyone to make assumptions, which I guess I did and I apologize. =P

I know you love BC's, I just mentioned that because I totally adore the breed as well, and I hate what BYB's who never even think to work or test their dogs are doing to the breed. I basically posted thinking that Maggy had not been tested or worked, as you haven't posted anything about that at all. I had no idea she was in Flyball or Agility. I also had no idea about her hips & elbows being cleared, because you mentioned in another a post that you didn't do so for the GSD's your bred, so I made another assumption. Just fyi, Gonzo can also go "work" some livestock, I think any decently bred BC can... it's different between a BC who can round up livestock instinctively (which I've seen 6 month old puppies doing with no training) - and a dog who can do a great out-run, take commands from a distance and work independently, who has been trained and worked with to do so. IMO, only the BC's who work regularly and can excel at advanced trials should be bred, because they need to be able to perform the work that they were bred to do. I understand your view on not showing working dogs, even though it's often advised to at least have conformation that fits the standard, and totally respect that. But, if you are not breeding for conformation, at least breed for an excellent working dog who has been trialed and proven. About "others" who breed their dogs, I think some of them do get encouragement, because some breeders on PT have planned their litters and posted about plans literally years in advance, and we've taken the trip with them through health certs, working, sports, conformation, etc. If you're asking why we all support Jordan, she didn't just come on saying "Well... I might breed Visa, it depends. meh." She explained how she was going through dog sports, herding, & conformation with Visa, her researching studs, her health testing, everything. So, yes, we do feel like we know a lot more about Jordan and her breeding ethics than what I could collect from your brief & indecisive post. Just for the record, I would tell the exact same thing to anyone posting that they're thinking about breeding with no background info, no matter who they were.

I highly recommend the boards at http://bordercollie.org, there is several great BC breeders there, and lots of info on trialing & working dogs. Really great, informative posts even to just scan through.

[cali]

yep, thats one of the reasons I chose Misty, as a possable foundation bitch. but she still needs to finish her health clearences, and show me more proof of her working ability, professional sheepdog trialers and farmers have told me that Misty is better then average, I dont know, I made the mistake of working Happy on sheep first, and seeing as she is absolutly incredable and the shephereds and trialers all looked on in disbelief...well it kinda made Misty look a lot worse then she actually is lol

[wolf_Q]

No I really don't see myself ever breeding dogs. With such a huge pet overpopulation already, I wouldn't want to add to that. I do have one breed that I absolutely love and would like to devote all my time to (siberian huskies) but I would rather do that with having a Siberian Husky rescue.

Plus I really can't see myself having unspayed and unneutered dogs running around the house, just not for me!

[Lori Jordan]

"I really don't think it's about Breed worthy"

From that, I understandably got the idea that you were breeding her without proving her as worthy of passing on her genes. Please do explain further next time, so that there is no need for anyone to make assumptions, which I guess I did and I apologize. =P

I know you love BC's, I just mentioned that because I totally adore the breed as well, and I hate what BYB's who never even think to work or test their dogs are doing to the breed. I basically posted thinking that Maggy had not been tested or worked, as you haven't posted anything about that at all. I had no idea she was in Flyball or Agility. I also had no idea about her hips & elbows being cleared, because you mentioned in another a post that you didn't do so for the GSD's your bred, so I made another assumption. Just fyi, Gonzo can also go "work" some livestock, I think any decently bred BC can... it's different between a BC who can round up livestock instinctively (which I've seen 6 month old puppies doing with no training) - and a dog who can do a great out-run, take commands from a distance and work independently, who has been trained and worked with to do so. IMO, only the BC's who work regularly and can excel at advanced trials should be bred, because they need to be able to perform the work that they were bred to do. I understand your view on not showing working dogs, even though it's often advised to at least have conformation that fits the standard, and totally respect that. But, if you are not breeding for conformation, at least breed for an excellent working dog who has been trialed and proven. About "others" who breed their dogs, I think some of them do get encouragement, because some breeders on PT have planned their litters and posted about plans literally years in advance, and we've taken the trip with them through health certs, working, sports, conformation, etc. If you're asking why we all support Jordan, she didn't just come on saying "Well... I might breed Visa, it depends. meh." She explained how she was going through dog sports, herding, & conformation with Visa, her researching studs, her health testing, everything. So, yes, we do feel like we know a lot more about Jordan and her breeding ethics than what I could collect from your brief & indecisive post. Just for the record, I would tell the exact same thing to anyone posting that they're thinking about breeding with no background info, no matter who they were.

I highly recommend the boards at http://bordercollie.org, there is several great BC breeders there, and lots of info on trialing & working dogs. Really great, informative posts even to just scan through.

I never ment it like that just a snappy remark that came my way.....

[Lori Jordan]

Oh! Maggy is in flyball and agility! I did not know that! Does she have any titles?

Not of as of yet we have missed alot i have some pictures.She is up against dogs that have done this since the age of 6 months she knows what she is doing it's amazing how fast they pic up.We have a big meet mid August we will be attending in New York she is third in the class we are in now.She enjoys Flyball more than agility but she does well at both!