Desperate plea for help

[buckner]

Great response Kim.

Buckner,

If you don't want to hear good advice from people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT - DON'T ASK!!!!



Unless you have DVM after your name or are an animal behaviorist, get your damn cat to a vet and have her checked out!!! Tell the vet you want her urine tested for crystals. MAKE ROOM for more than just 3 litterboxes. How would YOU like to have a UTI and have no one help you??? UTI's are painful and can create worse problems.

It is YOUR responsibility to see that your cat's health is maintained and you're not doing that.

UGH!!!!! Stubborn?? Yeah right! If anyone is being stubborn, it's YOU!!!

It's people like you that make me want to stop coming to Pet Talk, one of my favourite forums ever. In all honesty, your comment made me burst into tears and I don't deserve it.

I came here for help, I didn't come here for you to scream at me and call me names. I'm a well respected member here at PT, and I take good care of my animals and always have. I don't need you to tell me otherwise, which is a baldface lie.

You're a 50-something year old woman, and you're acting like a 4 year old with your retaliation. That's not deserved either - I thought YOU of all people were better than that.


I never said that I wouldn't take Jill to vet, although it's not an option right now considering I don't have an appointment. I said I highly doubt it is a medical problem, for several reasons. Her behaviour hasn't really "changed" towards the cats since she's been here. She's always (ALWAYS) smacked around the other cats, and some of them just take it, and some fight back.

When she lived at my grandmother's, she could go in and out as she pleased. My grandmother lived in an area that was populated by strays, and that's what these cats were. Their mom was a feral cat, and these kittens (10 litters from the mama cat) were bred and raised at her house - and most of the kittens became very personable. Jill, Jack, and Callie were the last 3 kittens that my grandfather saw (and thought were beautiful) before he died, and my grandmother decided to have them spayed/neutered and have their shots, and then brought them inside, with her already existing 3-legged Trey, who was also a stray who showed up at her door many years ago with his back leg dangling. After Jill/Jack/Callie, the mama cat had another litter, and this litter was the one that Jessie and Jake were in. There were a couple of other cats, but my uncle took those to his farm. My grandmother soon brought in Jessie and Jake after she had them fixed and shots were given to them. She kept up their shots, and their vet visits, flea applications, etc etc. She took good care of them, and took extra precautions because they spent half of their time outside.

Jack, Jilll, Callie and sometimes Jake were the only ones to go outside at any major length of time. Jessie didn't want to, and Trey was always on a leash. So, my guess is that Jill did most of her business outside because she spent a lot of time outside. If she ever wanted out, she just sat at a door and cried, and my grandmother tended to them.

So, now that Jill is inside all of the time, my only guess was that she didn't like to use the litterbox (she liked to go outside and go potty) and now that she only has that option, she chooses to go somewhere else. What I'm trying to do is STOP this behaviour.

One of my friends suggested tin foil, but frankly, I don't have enough tin foil to cover our entire living room. So that's a no go, I think.

If I had more places to put the litterboxes, I would. But I've already lost my bathroom to one of them, what do you want me to do? Lose my bedroom to them by having 3 of them in here? My mom doesn't like the idea of having one in the living room, just because there's a reason that human bathrooms have their own private section of the house - we don't want to do our business in the middle of where we're sleeping and eating. But because we don't use the living room for anything, she's "okay" with it. The family room is a no go, and the kitchen is a no go (from the above reason, we wouldn't want to use the restroom where we eat or sleep or live). The two bathrooms already have one in them. My parents bathroom is far too small for it - and if we put one in there, no one would be able to shower. I can't shower in my bathroom because of the mess they make in there with the litter. My bedroom has one, my mom doesn't want one in her bedroom. So, I'm not trying to "ignore all of your suggestions", as catnapper put it, I'm merely stating that I don't know where else I CAN put a litterbox.

Speaking of having extras - they all seem to just go in 2 of the 4 anyways. Sometimes I go days without having to clean out some of the boxes.. but I understand that it's the fact that if they go at least once in a blue mood, it's worth it.


I appreciate the way you commented catnapper, K & L, catmandu, and Lizzie. You expressed your concern for Jill's wellbeing without being nasty about it, and that's all I expected - I didn't expect anyone to attack me for it.

moosmom, I can't tell you how many times I've bitten my tongue on this board when you've said something. It's not because of the "rules", it's because I was always taught to respect my elders, but I was also taught to not take any crap off of anybody. So if you have the audacity to treat me like a little kid who gets pets because they're pretty and then don't take care of them, then stop it right now, because I don't want to hear it. I took these 6 cats on without particularly "wanting them" - I'm not a cat person, but I'm doing the best I can. I could've taken them all to a shelter, but I decided it wasn't right because of my promise to my grandmother. I didn't ASK for these cats. My life has been turned upside down with these cats, and so has my dog's life. My family and my dog has allowed so much for these cats and we spend a lot of money on them, but we haven't complained yet, until now, when Jill is destroying our house by peeing and pooping everywhere. So don't even go there, Donna, I don't want to hear it.

[buckner]

I feel your frustration. Is there anyway to have an outdoor enclosure until you have more land?

I understand your question, but what kind of outdoor enclosures are you talking about? Cats can obviously jump over fences, so I don't think you're talking about that. I have a feeling that if I did let Jill outside, she would come back - she's an intelligent cat, and she knows where her food is. I just wish we had more land, and fewer people driving down the street. The cars are what bothers me - I don't think she'd get hit, but you never know. The set up at my grandmother's house was perfect, because she had a larger amount of land, and all of her neighbors knew about her cats and it didn't bother them at all. And, she had glass pane doors and tons of windows she was always looking out, in case a cat wanted inside. We have wood doors, so we wouldn't really know when there was a cat waiting to come back inside.

Maybe if you could suggest some kind of outdoor enclosure, I could look into it.

[catnapper]

I'm sorry you feel jumped on. We're really just trying to help

This morning, I woke up to finding pee on the kitchen counter, right on top of all the baby bibs stored in a basket. Last night, someone peed on the table in the front room, mere inches away from the litterbox. Someone is sick and trying to tell me that (thats someone is almost assuredly Pouncer). I called the vet and have an appointment for Tuesday (being a holiday weekend and all, thats the first appointment) I can pretty much tell you what my weekend is going to be: finding pee in places it isn't supposed to be. I know WHY he pees, so I'm a lot more tolerant. I know I wouldn't be so lax if he peed for no apparent reason. He started to show signs of being sick last week, but I let it go as behavioral since my son came home from college last week and he got upset at the change in flow around here. I've been watching his behavior like a hawk and decided that he's sick... but I want the vet to confirm it before I start him on Clavimox.

In my experience, Pouncer does not change his cranky ways when he's sick. He still torments Abby and wrestles with Allen. He still TRIES to play with Flutter (she will play to a point then he gets too rough and scares her off ) All in all, his hissy highness is the same as when he's not sick. Please look up my initial threads about him being sick back last summer/fall; you'll see that the thing that confused me the most was that he was 100% normal in every way, except the pee thing. Turns out he was VERY sick and at one point close to being completely blocked. Luckily, he passed the stone that was blocking him. It took THREE MONTHS of antibiotics and steroids to finally clear up the cystitis. And here we are, him sick again.

I'm only trying to help you see that just because she's acting the same doesn't mean it couldn't be a medical issue. Please, I speak from experience here. I SWORE that he was just being a hissy brat, until it was blatantly obvious that he was sick.

And regarding litterboes: My 7th litterbox is on the 3rd floor just outside my daughter's room tucked between the radiator and a storage cabinet. I scoop that once a week, but its there because before it was there, someone thought it was perfectly acceptable to pee on her bed. As soon as I put the box there, no more pee. Its only used two or three times a week -- always pee, never poo. Its not pretty (I'll readily admit that) but I prefer to look at an ugly litterbox than wash the smae sheets and comforter 3 times a week.

I really do wish you luck, but I would make sure that she has no health issues before assuming its behavioral. You'll be spinning your wheels if it is health because your remedies aren't geared towards the problem.

[emily_the_spoiled]

I know this is really hard for you because I went through something very similar with Emily. I had reached the point where I actually thought about having her PTS. I wasn't willing to dump her outside and the shelters where I was living at the time were very high kill.

I spent lots of money on antibiotics and tests for her. The only thing we could come up with is that she is very sensitive to UTI's. I am still really careful when she starts to pee outside the box.

I did try a few things that seemed to help alot. This is going to sound crazy but a night-lite actually helped quite a bit. I am not sure why but it works (maybe I have a cat that is afraid of the dark...)

Another thing I found helpful was to have covered litter boxes. I don't have a door on the front, but they have a top to them. (not only do I have cats that are afraid of the dark, I also have cats that get embarassed easily )

It is a matter of trial and error to find out what will help...

[Lizzie]

That's good input, about Jill being an indoor/outdoor cat previously. Having brought in adult ferals who had never used a litter box before, though, my experience is that after a few days of peeing on the floor, and my dabbing the pee from there into the box, they used the box well. So her reason for not using the box shouldn't be simply that she prefers an outdoor litterbox. If you are dealing only with a behavior problem, she could be making a statement that she is angry about being cooped up and it may well have nothing to do with whether or not she likes using a litter box. She is, obviously, very upset, as are you and so you are both in a difficult situation. She's lost her guardian, her home, and her outdoor privileges, and she's living with people who wish she wasn't there. You are living with an angry cat that is making your home smell bad and creating a lot of extra work.

Can you fence off an area outside for her to use? Are the regulations simply that she is not free to roam? I know, more expense for you! A few people o this forum have created outside, enclosed runs for their cats so hopefully they can help. Perhaps you can start a thread asking for ideas?

What were your feelings towards Jill when she lived with your grandmother? Did you rather dislike her then? I'm wondering if you tried to bond with her, to spend time with her, to give her a new guardian. I know very well that it's difficult to spend quality time with a bad-tempered cat that is causing trouble instead of those whose company you enjoy, but creating a better emotional atmosphere between you might help.

There have been a few times when I've been totally and adamantly convinced that a cat with litter box problems is doing so for purely behavorial reasons, based on past experience with them, and then found out that they did have a UTI. It could be both, as it has been with some of mine.

[K & L]

I understand your question, but what kind of outdoor enclosures are you talking about? Cats can obviously jump over fences, so I don't think you're talking about that. I have a feeling that if I did let Jill outside, she would come back - she's an intelligent cat, and she knows where her food is. I just wish we had more land, and fewer people driving down the street. The cars are what bothers me - I don't think she'd get hit, but you never know. The set up at my grandmother's house was perfect, because she had a larger amount of land, and all of her neighbors knew about her cats and it didn't bother them at all. And, she had glass pane doors and tons of windows she was always looking out, in case a cat wanted inside. We have wood doors, so we wouldn't really know when there was a cat waiting to come back inside.

Maybe if you could suggest some kind of outdoor enclosure, I could look into it.

Here's some links that might help and a photo of ours. There are ones that you can attach to you home and ones that are free standing. I realize how you're feeling since I've been going through this myself with one cat we bottle raised. I finally had to seclude him to the garage and cat run that we have. I could not tolerate all the urine throughout my house. Believe me I'm a patient woman, but I finally lost it. It was becoming destructive and tiring. I would come home daily cleaning for 1 - 2 hours everywhere he had sprayed. I commend you for even adhering to the promise you made your Grandmother. I hope my grandchildren will respect me enough to even consider making me a promise.

It just might come to the time you have to let her do at your place what she did at your Grandmother's.

Here's some links and hopefully they help you some:

http://www.cat-world.com.au/cat-worldenclosures.htm
http://www.animalnetwork.com/cats/enclosure.asp
http://www.petplace.com/cats/selecti.../enclosure.asp

http://shopping.yahoo.com/search/;_y...tion=1&sp=pall

Here's ours:


It is a good idea to rule out a medical problem. We did this and found out it is behavorial. This way at least you know which one you're dealing with and can then start working on ways to deal with the behavioral issue.

[Catsnclay]

I think most of us can feel your furstration, most of us have been through this with at least one of our cats.

You said Jill was a indoor/outdoor cat with your grandma's, well that right there can be a big problem. When we moved into our new house we made the decision of keeping Fluffy (our indoor/outdoor cat) indoors because of coyotes. It was a living hell for us for a few months until HE realized that he was just NOT going out any more.

As you know, cats like dogs and other animals cannot communicate with us, so we have to play dectective and figure out WHY they are doing the things they are. My first priority would be the office visit, once you rule that out, then move on to the next obvious: Jill is grieving, you said your grandma did everything for her, so I'm sure Jill is missing her dearly and this is her way of showing it.

You need to give this time, and I don't mean in days, I mean months. Jill may never get over this, but you will have to.

You said that you made a promise to your grandma that you would take her 6 cats........WHY if you are not a "cat person" ?? And if you did let Jill outside, what happened if she didn't come home, or worse, you find her dead on the streets.......how would you feel then? How would you think your grandmother would feel? I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but think before you act. Put yourself in Jill's shoes and try and find what the problem just might be, don't just toss her (and the other's) out because you are not cat people and don't like the litter around.

Ok, I'm curious here and no one else asked, but your friend who suggested the tin foil...........why? What did she think that would do?? I just have never heard of this before and was wondering.

Good luck and don't give up, we ARE here to help you and that is what ALL of us are trying to do for you since this is your first experiences with cats. Just another thing to remember: if Jill does have UTI, please, please do NOT hesitate to take her in. Cats are VERY good at hiding their sickness, buy the time WE figure it out, they are in DIRE need of a doctor. They do this naturally because in the wilderness the "sick" cat will get attacked by predators, so they HIDE THEIR ILLNESS.

Please keep us updated on poor Jill!!! Where do you live, maybe someone here can adopt Jill and the rest????!!!!

[Lizzie]

Ok, I'm curious here and no one else asked, but your friend who suggested the tin foil...........why? What did she think that would do?? I just have never heard of this before and was wondering.

It's suggested that when you use a cleaner such as Nature's Miracle, you put aluminium foil over the damp spot because cats don't like it and won't walk on it. That may be where her friend got the idea that if the carpet was covered with foil, the cat would not use it as a litter box. Given the problem, though, I think we'd all agree that the cat would simply use the furniture instead.

[K & L]

This thread has really got to me and made me think of a lot of things. People come here to chat, ask for advice, and basically show off their beloved feline friends. Everyone’s situation is not the same, and everyone’s patience and tolerance is not the same. I see a caring person here for her Grandmother, and her Grandmother’s cats. For someone that didn’t own cats, she sure is giving a lot of effort to try and make the situation right, and respect her Grandmother’s wishes. I cringe whenever I think about what will happen to our bunch if something happens to us.

I agree, since you really don’t know the cats whole medical history a vet exam is in definite order.

We all can give our advice on what we know, what we’ve experienced, and how we think things should be handled. This doesn’t necessarily mean someone has to take this advice. Also, I feel it’s easy to tell people they need more litter boxes, they need to place them differently, but sometimes people do not have the space to do all this. We’re fortunate to own a home that allows us to provide a nice environment for the amount of cats we have, others aren’t. Us responsible pet owners do the best we can with what we have to work with.

I remember when a comment was made at me one time for releasing a feral back in its environment cause it had to have a shot of antibiotics. Yet, I felt I did more than most people would have, or had. I understand we all have the cats best interest in mind, but we tend to forget the human that is sometimes involved here. I had to put Mouser out because of this very issue. I almost put Leila out back also. Would that have made me a terrible person? Is Leila not fixed, fed, cared for? Sometimes you just have to do what you need to do. We have spent thousands of dollars in the last month on vet bills and things that have been damaged due to spraying. You have to draw a line somewhere.

Also, it’s easy to say take the cat to a no-kill shelter. I don’t know about where you live, but our no-kill shelters are bursting at the seams and they are not accepting any more cats at this time. That’s not always the easy solution either.

Some people don't agree with TNR. That doesn't stop me. I'm helping other cats not have to live this type of life.

This is my 2 cents for whatever it’s worth. I wish you the best of luck with your decision and trying to make the cats adapt. You have to do what your conscience allows.

[AbbyMom]

Please also check out this fabulous article on litterbox problems:

http://www.catsinternational.org/

I keep copies at the shelter to hand out to people having the same problem with their cats and asking about giving the cat up.

Good luck.

[Kfamr]

Wow.. this is just disgusting.

Sara, I'm sorry there are people here who make your stay upsetting.
You were just trying to find help and giving the most information you can. YOU know this cat more than anyone else here does - YOU live with it.
The "damn cat" could be grieving the loss of your grandmother as well. You know how sometimes things take a while to really set in with someone, including pets. I wish you lots of luck and hopefully you find a solution that's best for your newly-added kitties.




Donna, your comments are uncalled for as usual and I'm quite sick of how you always seem to get away with being blatantly RUDE and hypocritical.



Thank you to everyone else who are capable of giving helpful advice without cutting a young girl's throat in the process.

[Catsnclay]

It's suggested that when you use a cleaner such as Nature's Miracle, you put aluminium foil over the damp spot because cats don't like it and won't walk on it. That may be where her friend got the idea that if the carpet was covered with foil, the cat would not use it as a litter box. Given the problem, though, I think we'd all agree that the cat would simply use the furniture instead.

Wow, never heard of such a thing in all my cat years!

I guess you DO learn something new every day! Thanks for answering my question.

[buckner]

Thanks to all of you who stuck up for me. I really do appreciate knowing that I'm not the only one who thought I was being attacked.


We're actually looking into an outdoor fenced in area for Jill and whichever other cats to lounge. My dad wants to make one, as opposed to buying it, so it may be a while until we actually get it up, if we do indeed go that route.

My mom mentioned that maybe Jill just feels unloved. I don't treat her *any* different than I did when she lived at my grandmother's - I don't treat her badly at all. I treat her lovingly and try to be as nice as to her as possible. The only problem with giving her constant love and affection is that I'd have to go find her for that. She's not the most personable cat - she likes to be on her own most of the time. The other cats come up and crawl in my lap and demand attention and want their strokes. So we're going to also work on that - trying to give her constant love and affection, even if that means putting the other cats down to go find her every now and then.

We haven't kicked her out or anything, but she still is going in the wrong places. It's quite aggravating and frustrating, to say the least.

You said that you made a promise to your grandma that you would take her 6 cats........WHY if you are not a "cat person" ?? And if you did let Jill outside, what happened if she didn't come home, or worse, you find her dead on the streets.......how would you feel then? How would you think your grandmother would feel? I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but think before you act. Put yourself in Jill's shoes and try and find what the problem just might be, don't just toss her (and the other's) out because you are not cat people and don't like the litter around.

Please keep us updated on poor Jill!!! Where do you live, maybe someone here can adopt Jill and the rest????!!!!

I'm really trying hard to not take that as an attack too, because you don't know the story behind my grandmother and I. My grandmother was my best friend, as are both of my parents. She meant EVERYTHING to me, and most of her day was spent doing something with her cats. Whether it was shopping for them, or playing with them, or taking Trey (the three-legged) for a walk, she was constantly doing something for/with them. She'd spend hours at a time outside with Trey and she'd do anything for her kitties. I got to know her cats very well because I always wanted to be at her house. I knew that neither of uncles would/could take her cats, and I promised her that since I loved her and her cats so much, I'd take care of them if anything happened to her. And unfortunately, something DID happen to her. I'm not sure if you're aware of what happened to her, but something did happen to her, and given the circumstance of that, I had no choice but to take them as soon as possible. We didn't want the cats tampering with the crime scene, inside or outside, so I tried to get the cats up at my house as soon as I could. So no, I'm not a cat person - I'll probably never adopt a cat when I get older, but these were put into my lap. I never dreamed anything would happen so suddenly to her, but since I was wrong, I did what I could. I'm sorry if you disagree with it, but that's the way it is.

My grandmother used to let the cats in and out, and her driveway was right off of a busy highway. She knew that something could very easily happen to one of the cats, and she was okay with it because they loved to be outdoors. It's just like us - we could get into a car wreck when we go shopping, but does that stop us? Nope. She let her cats outside because they wanted to go outside - she knew that they may never return, and she hoped that wouldn't be the case, but she did it anyways. So if I let Jill outside hoping she'd come back, but knew she may not, it'd be the same scenario as my grandmother doing so. My grandmother would NOT be disappointed in me if that happened - she'd rather Jill be happy, and being outside makes her happy. The only thing stopping me from doing that is the regulations in the neighborhood. Animals are not allowed to roam freely. They have to be in a fenced area or on a leash.

I live in Louisville, Kentucky. If someone lives within a 2-ish hour radius from here, and would like to adopt Jill, let me know. However, I'd like to adopt her out to someone who has plenty of land for Jill to roam if she wants to. The other cats are not a problem, really.

[jenluckenbach]

May I give you 3 extreme examples that have happened with my own kitties?

-1- Right after I adopted Willow (#9) I started finding pee spots. Well, with 9, it takes quite a bit of sleuth work to figure out WHO! let alone WHY? I was 100% positive that it was BEHAVIORAL in retaliation to the new cat. I slacked in my investigation until it got to the point that it was happening ALL the time. (jump to end of story) When I did find out who, even though I KNEW the results were going to tell me "behavioral" I took him to the vet.........the diagnosis?????? DIABETES. My baby was sick and I never even knew it. The peeing stopped as soon as his blood sugar was regulated.

-2- Many years (and cats) later another bout of innapropriate peeing began. Well, being up to 15 cats did not help the sleuth work. But pee was everywhere. And at this time I DID know that I had 2 spiteful sprayers, so finding out that Rutherford was deathly sick was almost not caught in time. He was blocking from crystals/stones, a life threatening condition. .........treatment???? P-U surgery and bladder stone removal

-3- Recently, you may have read, about Lucas having constant diarrhea. What you might not know is that 2,3,4 times a DAY I'd be cleaning liquid poop off my CARPET! and we tried EVERYTHING. And then he started peeing out of the box too. .......... the final diagnosis? CANCER. And believe me when I tell you the word euthanasia came into my mind more than one time.

>>>>>>>>

Now, I only tell you this because I too was certain it was NOT medical, and yet, it was. (and sorry it was so long)

>>>>>>>>

So, if you care about the cat, tell the vet everything and ask for appropriate tests.

>>>>>>>>

And one more possible suggestion (but only AFTER the vet) do you feel that if you harness train the cats and walk her in a safe manner in the yard on a daily or twice daily basis, do you think she might feel less likely to pee in the house? Maybe house training her like a dog might bring her some comfort if you believe she missed the outdoors so much.

>>>>>>>>


Good luck. I have been there and certainly KNOW all the frustrations.

[Pam]

I am sorry you were attacked. I probably would have cried too if someone responded to me like that. My thoughts regarding posts like that, is if someone can't respond civilly they shouldn't respond at all. Let others give suggestions in a caring way and there are plenty of people here who can and did.

I agree that a trip to the vet is step #1 to rule out a UTI. I respect you 100% for wanting to comply with your grandmother's wishes but you might also check with other family members (aunts, uncles, cousins) to see if they might like to take a cat or two so that your own home can return to normal. (((hugs)))