Where do you stand?

[momoffuzzyfaces]

They plan on living in the US when my sons tour of duty is over. She applied legally for Citizenship immediately after they were married. They were suppose to go to Hawaii this month to make it final (Closest American soil to Okinawa). My son received a letter stating her citizenship was being held up one more year and would only be granted then if he reinlisted for another year of service. He has already been in the service for 7 1/2 years and is ready to get out. I CONSIDER THIS BLACKMAIL on the part of the American government.

BLACKMAIL was the first word that popped into my head too even before I got to you using it. Can you write any congress people about this??? With immagration being such a hot issue right now, it may help. Maybe CNN would like to air this or something?

[BOBS DAD]

What did any of us do to earn our civil/citizen rights....except be born in the right place?????

I don't know about you, but my grandparents came here legally! They did the "tough, dirty work" that ALL Immigrants do - because it was a job! Something they couldn't find in Croatia. BUT it was not the streets paved with gold they had heard about... it took tremendous hard work and a generation or two of menial work, long hard hours in the coal mines, factories and Steel Mills to get to where we are today.

They took what work they could get, paid their taxes and served in the military. They expected and got no special favors. They had to learn the language and exist in a complex foreign environment. My Grandmother had 11 children - all born at home with neighbors serving as midwives. One child died during childbirth. Why? Because they "had NO Health Insurance". My father and his brothers and sister went to "public" school initially speaking only Croatian. NO-ONE offered them any special attention. They taught classes in English and they were expected to pick it up. All my Uncles served in the military and 4 died on foreign soil during WWII and the Korean War. None of them graduated from High School! At 16 they were expected to get a job (my Grandfather's expectation) and make their own way. My father quit school in 8th grade (even though he was an Honor Student), lied about his age and enlisted in the Army. He worked his entire life as a manual laborer, digging graves, pumping gas and fixing other peoples cars. At one time (when all 3 of his boys were in college) he worked 3 jobs to pay the bills. All his kids went to college and now are working professionals and significantly contribute to society.

I know that many of you have the "same" story - just different names and locales. Point is - they did this all legally. Not hiding in any shadows but proudly paying their dues. They adopted their "new" country as opposed to expecting their new country to adopt them. The did not get and did not expect any special favors. I know that Latinos have it rough and those coming here illegally are desparate. BUT something has to be done to right the ship and fix the problem. A festering wound doesn't heal itself - it only gets worse.

So in answer to your query: I think we have "done a whole lot more" THAN JUST BEING BORN IN THE RIGHT PLACE!!!

[RICHARD]

I have thought about what I have done to earn my citizenship.

Nothing.

I do get on my knees often and realize that I do live in fairly decent country.

I do go on jags of being patriotic, sing the National Anthem before sporting events, look after my fellow man, try to be a civic minded person, learn another trivial fact about my country.


I have asked the security guards to fix the flag that flys over the parking lot on a windy game.

I know most of the rules concerning my flag. how to fold it, treat it when it becomes unflyable.

I didn't do anything to get my citizenship.

But I try to keep in good stead regarding the laws and the way it's run.

I respect the office of the country, but not the fools in the chairs.

There are many things l love about my country and many that I dislike.

I cringe on the days when I hear another stupid story that happens in my country-
I really cringe should it come out of Cah Lee Fuh Nee Ah..
But that goes with the territory.

I'll fight and probably die for my country, But I may as well for She has treated me right for all these years.

Have I earned my citizenship? Probably not.

Which should make anyone entering the country, anyone who desires to wrap themselves in my flag, more apt to follow the rules.

I cannot earn my citizenship, but they can.

That is why I feel oh, so lucky that I didn't have to.

[lizbud]

Richard,

We all earn our citizenship every day by staying involved with what
goes on in the political arena in our name. By voting & speaking up we
may well prove lucky enough to live in a free society.

[smokey the elder]

IMO we earn our citizenship by complying with the laws of the land, paying taxes, voting, performing civic duties like jury duty, volunteering, becoming politically active, exercising our freedoms. But I'll admit we are definitely at an advantage because our ancestors did the legwork of becoming naturalized US citizens. During all eras of American history there were immigrant groups at the bottom of the social totem pole. In the antebellum East and South it was the Irish. In the post-Civil War West it was the Chinese railroad workers. They worked hard, were abused, but sucked it up, and made a better life for their kids. 'Nuff said...

[Edwina's Secretary]

I still have my FM3 from when I worked in Mexico. Oddly, I did not have
\to go through such an onerous process as described.

Read this thread..."those people" is not a phrase of respect....

My grandparents came here for the same reason. But...and I am just asking to further the discussion....what WERE the requirements then? Does anyone know? I know the health one, but other than $$$ what did you have to do?

[lizbud]

I was curious also. I found this link that contains general & specific
requirements for immigrants. It also has a history of the immigration
laws & requirements. In the general requirements is one that requires
the person to be able to read, write & speak english. I think that one
alone would cut out a lot of people.


http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm

[Sevaede]

BLACKMAIL was the first word that popped into my head too even before I got to you using it. Can you write any congress people about this??? With immagration being such a hot issue right now, it may help. Maybe CNN would like to air this or something?

Exact same things that popped into my head.

[BOBS DAD]

The thing I don't remember is if they earn this per week or per month. $460.00 a month seems ridiculously low, but $900.00 a week seems a little on the high side, so I'm not sure about the time period.

That doesn't "really" seem high - when you break it down. As a citizen, you can apply for Civil Servant jobs (Postal Workers, etc.) and earn decent money. You also stand a really good chance of being hired as minorities are given preference and extra points on their exams.

$900.00 a week is only $3,600.00 a month and $46,800.00 a year. That sounds about right. Not to mention that many people choose to continue to hold side jobs - often working for their initial employer (when they were not citizens and sometimes illegals).

Being against Immigration Reform or Anti-Illegal doesn't make you a "bad person" or a bigot. You are just excercising some of your rights as an American citizen - the right to dissent, to have an opinion and freedom to express your point of view!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I'm not sure I agree that some of the comments here have not been rather bigotted....but it is not against the law in any case.

But thre are some myths being repeated here that I think we should explode.

They don't pay taxes.
I don't know about your grocery store but mine does not have a line for those who are legal residents....taxes collected and a separate line for those who are not legal....no taxes. Furthermore, if someone is employed using an illegal social security number...they pay state income tax, federal income tax, and social security income tax (FICA). Because they are illegal, they will never collect social security nor can they file a return and get back any overpayment of taxes.

All the stuff they get free
It is true many foreign nationals do not want to give up citizenship in their native country. That does not mean they want to work here illegally. Despite what some think....it is not comfortable (nor easy) to be in this country illegally. You must always be afraid. Deportation hangs over your head. When I worked in the software industry we had many foreign nationals -- legally (H1-B). Some were interested in citizenship. Some were interested in permanent residence. Many planned on returning someday to their home country. (Always was an issue convincing them to participate in the 401(k). Until they understood they could take it with them.)

An aside at this point....we were hiring H1-B's because we could not find US educated graduates in the software field. I would have preferred to do so. Cheaper of course. My dream was to find a US educated and raised female with the right training. But math and science isn't cool to many of our young people.

There are many countries throughout the world which depend on their citizens working elsewhere and sending home wages. Egypt, the Phillipines are examples.

It is a complex problem with many layers. I do not know what the solution is. I don't think blaming it ALL on Mexican immigrants is the solution. I don't think builidng a wall between the US and Mexico and mass deportation is the answer.

And I don't think taking a Those People attitude helps the discussion. We have seen it before. There was a law denying immigration to Chinese, there was the Know Nothing political party -- dedicated to anti-immigration and anti-Catholic in the 1800's. There was the common sign in business in the 1920's and 1930's....NINA No Irish Need Apply.

Rather than a revisionist and emotional attitude about immigration in the past in this country, I think we should take a realistic and factual look at it and see if we can learn how it fix it this time.

[BOBS DAD]

"Long Haired Freaky People" need not apply...

And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, "me working for you"

WOW!!! I just made that up. Honestly!!!


"All the stuff they get free"...?

There are many statistics that suggest illegal aliens do in fact receive free medical care and social services at a staggering cost to the American economy. I could list many of them here, but I am afraid that it would sound quite slanderous and terribly unfair to the many wonderful, hardworking immigrants who "do" contribute positively to our society. BUT THOSE STATISTICAL FACTS ABOUT HEALTHCARE, WELFARE and LAW ENFORCEMENT are readily available if you choose to find them.

Yes, it's tough - this "immigration thing" and what to do about it, but let's not dance around the facts. It will not help anything and will only serve to prolong the fear, anxiety and discomfort that illegals experience.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Since this is America.....I will continue to believe there are many bigotted remarks being thrown around on this thread and you will continue to believe I am deluding myself.

Oh by the way.....dreaming of finding a female candidate for a traditionally male position is called outreach or affirmative action....not illegal.

But then....Rush Limbaugh probably doesn't mention that.

Truth, justice and the American way....one out of three isn't bad.....

I just made that up...honest.....

[BOBS DAD]

Truth, justice and the American way....one out of three isn't bad.....

That is a good one. I like it. I think it will stick!!!

Rush Limbaugh??? Now that's a crackup! What an idiot!!! NOW THERE'S YOUR BIGOT! I am not sure if you think I really ever listen to Rush Limbaugh (except when I want to hear what the ultra conservative, right winged bigots are thinking today). Any fair minded person can see right through the Rush Limabaugh's of the world. NO... I prefer Al Franken and his popularly titled book, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot"!!!

But back to one of my earlier posts and a comment you referenced. I did not say that my "grandparents" were born at home but rather "my father". He and his 9 siblings! I am not sure of the facts but I was under the impression that most folks were seeking medical assistance at that time in our country - whether it be a Doctor making housecalls or a visit to the hospital. BUT I AM NOT SURE. Even my mother and her siblings (Coalminers daughter) had a Doctor present. But again, not the point... Point is that they made their own way and their presence in America was no drain on the economy or healthcare - same as your grandparents.

ISN'T IT FUN TO AGREE TO DISAGREE... ONLY TO ULTIMATELY AGREE ON "MOST" THINGS!!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I assume your grandmother gave birth to your father. I know that is the way it worked in my family!

I said....

my grandmother had her children at home by midwives

Perhaps I should have been more cleared and said delivered by midwife so as not to suggest created by the midwife....

According to my father's stories...poor families especially...only sought medical assistance in an emergency...which did not include childbirth. But, in any case, you paid cash. Or chickens. Medical insurance came later.

When I see people picking strawberries in the fields around here I struggle to think they are getting a free ride and not making their own way....

It is all too true that immigrants (as well as many others!) in this country had a rough time of it and social safety nets were pretty much nonexistent. Hurt at work....oh well! Unable to work because of age or disabled? That's what kids are for....to support you. No food?....there's the bread line.

I just don't know if we really want to use those good old days as guiding principles today.

[BOBS DAD]

Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary: MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

MOFF, you ae not seriously thinking that naturalized citizens earn a mere $900.00 a year, are you? Or am I just misunderstanding Edwina's post?

Could be... sometimes things get lost in translation. I was referencing Debbie's earlier post - where she mentioned that she read some figures about a jump in wage earning from an illegal to a legalized citizen. And in referencing her post, I said that it "sounded" plausible. "Sounded" is the operative word here, as neither Debbie (I don't believe) or I have any hard data to support this presumption. BUT, it only stands to reason that those who have the where-with-all and knowledge to realize their dream of citizenship have in fact tapped into the government programs for betterment through education and job training. An Immigrants' legal status opens the door to job-training and work-support programs. Indeed, eligibility for most government-sponsored programs is restricted to legal immigrants under federal law.

BUT FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE... don't take anything your hear or read here at PT as Gospel. We are all just blabbering about subjects that most of us cannot claim expertise on. If you know how to use the Internet to connect to PT, then you certainly can research these subject yourself through "SEARCH ENGINES" and Keywords. Try to find government sponsored sites with no political agenda - straight statistics. Also look for Non Partisan Research Groups sites. Here is a good one for anyone interested: http://www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=310880

It is a Brief on "Immigrant Families and Workers: Facts and Perspectives" by the URBAN INSTITUTE ( a Non-Partisan Economic and Social Policy Research Organization). It is very interesting and more "reliable" than we pet lover's dribble here at PT! Not as much fun to read, a little dry and no "shots below the belt" - OUUCCHHH... but far more factual.

In fact, while I am at it. I recommend everyone utilize the Internet in their rearch when voting as well. IT IS AMAZING WHAT YOU CAN LEARN AND DISCOVER. When I was young and going to the polls, I used to againize over who was right, who was wrong, who's telling the truth and what records can I research to see who is most closely aligned to my own thinking and political philosophies. AND NOW... NOW... my answers are at my fingertips. It is truly amazing the breadth of knowledge and facts accessible on line. If a candidate says another voted for or against something "everytime" it came up. I can easily check that fact by checking voting records listed online at government sites and who voted for what. It is truly amazing how much people lie or stretch the truth!!!

That's enough rambling for now. More on that subject at a later date. Back to work... before they deport me!!!