Ideas to convince someone not to breed

**IRescue452** · 04-14-2006, 08:31 AM

Forget the moral stuff. Here's a price breakdown on breeding. If anything will do it this will. You should print this off and let her see it. The prices are the bottom half.

I don't remember who posted this, but I thought it was a good reprsentation of what goes into breeding:

Quote:
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN,

HI. Iâ€™M LOOKING TO BREED MY 3-YEAR-OLD PUG, JAKE. HE IS PAPERED, Iâ€™M LOOKING TO HAVE HIM FIXED SOON BUT I WOULD LIKE ONE OF HIS NAMESAKE TO CARRY ON HIS NAME. Iâ€™M NOT LOOKING FOR MONEY BUT I WOULD LIKE ONE OF THE PUPS. PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH ME. MAYBE WE CAN TALK. MAYBE YOU CAN PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH SOMEONE WHO CAN. THANK YOU. GOSSIMER.

Hi, Gossimer:

This proposal sounds intriguing. I'm currently looking for a fawn stud for my BISS Ch Larimar's Stardust CD, CGC (BIS/BISS Ch Larimar's Chip of the Old Block ROM*** x Ch Jill's Win-Chimes of Lil Mite ROM***).

What line is Jake from and what is his linebreeding/inbreeding/coefficient? I apologize; but I'm not familiar with his callname. I'll need to know Jake's CERF, OFA patella luxation and OFA CHD certification numbers, T3 & T4 test results, number of occurrences of hemivertebrae, PDE, and cleft palate through the fifth generation. Just to be on the safe side, I'll need a negative brucellosis and bordetella licensed veterinarian certification from you. It's not a bad idea to get a VetGen phenotyping either.

For the future Get, I'll also need copies of Jake's titles and his AKC and/or CKC registration number(s). I'm especially interested in copies of his PDCA ROM and additional stars awards.

Since there's no stud fee involved, I assume you'll want pick? Dog or b###h? Will you be willing to agree to 1/2 the cesarean if the cause should arise? If the whelps are larger than 6 ounces at parturition, it will be necessary. This seems only fair. Last time I got a good break and it was only $500, but unfortunately that vet retired this year and the new owner has raised everything to almost double! It's hard to find a good pug vet!

Will you be doing a natural or artificial? If artificial, I'll need you to send the fresh chilled or frozen semen Overnight Express Mail. I'll be willing to split the cost; $500 should cover it unless you are on the East Coast, then I'll send $750. Please let me know where to send the check. I think it's only fair that you take care of the semen analysis expense since I will be doing the whelping and training. You should be able to find a Canine Semen Bank and Collection/Storage in your area. Be sure to get at least three straws. The last time I looked into having it done, it was about $900.00--a lot less than before since more and more people are doing it.

If Jake does natural, let me know which airport to ship to (if you are outside of CA). To take care of my dam, I'll need to have an overnight or early, early morning delivery time. Since it's getting warmer now, it's best to plan for you to pick her up after midnight. Even with a cool down mat you never know with these brachceapholoids (I probably spelled that wrong, but you know what I mean! . Be sure to take MC/VISA or cash since the counter-to-counter service does not accept checks.

Let me know after they tie three times and then I will let you know the return arrangements. She ovulates late, so she may be two or three weeks at your house. I'll get her to you by the tenth day just to be sure we don't miss it or she absorbs.

Double check with your homeownerâ€™s insurance plan to see that it covers visiting matrons in case anything should happen. A BISS CH/CD/CGC should be covered for a minimum of $5K.

Since her cycle is so late, you'll need to purchase Solid Gold. I can't send enough in the crate. It generally runs $40 a bag. Be sure to get the Seameal, Pet Tabs Plus, Concept-A-b###h, and Red Raspberry Tea Leaves too. Also, she'll need 500 mg. of Ascorbic Acid, 200 mg. of Tocopherols twice a day with tepid water. Not too hot because she will grow finicky. Be careful not to give her A Palmitate since this can increase the chance of cleft palate and I don't want to have to cull. It's a good idea to give her organically grown-pesticide free calf liver. You'll need to prepare it yourself since she doesn't like pre-packaged brands. It's best to buy it in 50-lb. bulk and boil it all at once. Be sure to keep skimming the foam off every 15 minutes because she doesn't like it slimy. Bake it afterwards until it's a good baiting consistency then vacuum-pack and freeze it. The whole process should only take about 12 hours. In a hurry you could get it down to 10 hours.

You won't have to worry about splitting the vaccination costs for the litter. I give my own now and that will save you half of the normal $480 or so. You can help out with the title rebates if you'd like.

Your pick should be ready at 12 weeks. I'll let you know the whelping date so that you can plan the transportation. I assume you already own a Sherpa? That's the best way to go if you're out of CA, otherwise you can drive to pick it up--just bring along a Vari-Kennel.

What are your club affiliates? I don't recognize your email address off the top of my head. I'm DPCA, PDCA, and NCPC. If you're not PDCA, we can work on getting you your two letters of recommendation.

Well, let me know when you have all the necessary paperwork done. Also, please send me Jake's AKC certified 4 generation with coat colors and his best win shots so that I can make colored copies.

Warmest Regards,

Danielle M. Campi

And here's something I made up quite some time ago when someone asked if a breeder could make money off of 8 jack russel pups for $875 each:

Quote:
Okay, let's see. $875 times 8 is $7000. Both dam and sire should be health certitified before breeding.
Hips - $30
Elbows - $25
Thyroid - $15
Heart - $15
Patellar Luxation - $15
Deafness- $15
Eyes - $17.50 (because initial registration)
That is $132.50 .

Tests for Brucellosis (disease of reproductive tract) and Bortedella (STD) - $60

$40 to submit DNA test results to AKC. DNA test - $15

Solid Gold vitamins for bitch - $40

Stud fee for a Champion dog can be as high as $2000. Let's say $1000.

Bitch must go to the vet at around day 30. Alot of breeders like to use an ultrasound--another $200.

$1000 should be put aside for an emergency C-section.

At around day 50, you have to take days off of work to be around the expentant mother 24/7 to make sure nothing goes wrong. If you have a 9-5 job and an hourly wage of $15, you will lose around $1500. Then you have to stay with the dog and puppies until the puppies go home. 8 weeks - $6720

At 3 days, the puppies will need their first vet check, and the mother will need a check too. Each puppy will get dewclaws removed ($50 per puppy -- for 8 puppies that's $400). Rat terriers have their tails docked ($10.00 per tail, that's $80). Vaccination for eight puppies, $70 each, is $560. Deworming - $400. Puppies may need to be tested for skin problems, coccidia, and parvo -- $1000.

The breeder will need supplies before all of this happens. Whelping box, whelping box heating pad, incubator, weight scale, indoor puppy pen, first aid, emergency supplies, dishes. About $1000.

Food to feed puppies for two weeks - $40.

Registration fees for AKC - $400

Puppy kit to be sent home with new owner - $20 per puppy, $160 for 8 puppies.

**JenBKR** · 04-14-2006, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by IRescue452

Forget the moral stuff. Here's a price breakdown on breeding. If anything will do it this will. You should print this off and let her see it. The prices are the bottom half.

I don't remember who posted this, but I thought it was a good reprsentation of what goes into breeding:

Quote:
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN,

HI. Iâ€™M LOOKING TO BREED MY 3-YEAR-OLD PUG, JAKE. HE IS PAPERED, Iâ€™M LOOKING TO HAVE HIM FIXED SOON BUT I WOULD LIKE ONE OF HIS NAMESAKE TO CARRY ON HIS NAME. Iâ€™M NOT LOOKING FOR MONEY BUT I WOULD LIKE ONE OF THE PUPS. PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH ME. MAYBE WE CAN TALK. MAYBE YOU CAN PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH SOMEONE WHO CAN. THANK YOU. GOSSIMER.

Hi, Gossimer:

This proposal sounds intriguing. I'm currently looking for a fawn stud for my BISS Ch Larimar's Stardust CD, CGC (BIS/BISS Ch Larimar's Chip of the Old Block ROM*** x Ch Jill's Win-Chimes of Lil Mite ROM***).

What line is Jake from and what is his linebreeding/inbreeding/coefficient? I apologize; but I'm not familiar with his callname. I'll need to know Jake's CERF, OFA patella luxation and OFA CHD certification numbers, T3 & T4 test results, number of occurrences of hemivertebrae, PDE, and cleft palate through the fifth generation. Just to be on the safe side, I'll need a negative brucellosis and bordetella licensed veterinarian certification from you. It's not a bad idea to get a VetGen phenotyping either.

For the future Get, I'll also need copies of Jake's titles and his AKC and/or CKC registration number(s). I'm especially interested in copies of his PDCA ROM and additional stars awards.

Since there's no stud fee involved, I assume you'll want pick? Dog or b###h? Will you be willing to agree to 1/2 the cesarean if the cause should arise? If the whelps are larger than 6 ounces at parturition, it will be necessary. This seems only fair. Last time I got a good break and it was only $500, but unfortunately that vet retired this year and the new owner has raised everything to almost double! It's hard to find a good pug vet!

Will you be doing a natural or artificial? If artificial, I'll need you to send the fresh chilled or frozen semen Overnight Express Mail. I'll be willing to split the cost; $500 should cover it unless you are on the East Coast, then I'll send $750. Please let me know where to send the check. I think it's only fair that you take care of the semen analysis expense since I will be doing the whelping and training. You should be able to find a Canine Semen Bank and Collection/Storage in your area. Be sure to get at least three straws. The last time I looked into having it done, it was about $900.00--a lot less than before since more and more people are doing it.

If Jake does natural, let me know which airport to ship to (if you are outside of CA). To take care of my dam, I'll need to have an overnight or early, early morning delivery time. Since it's getting warmer now, it's best to plan for you to pick her up after midnight. Even with a cool down mat you never know with these brachceapholoids (I probably spelled that wrong, but you know what I mean! . Be sure to take MC/VISA or cash since the counter-to-counter service does not accept checks.

Let me know after they tie three times and then I will let you know the return arrangements. She ovulates late, so she may be two or three weeks at your house. I'll get her to you by the tenth day just to be sure we don't miss it or she absorbs.

Double check with your homeownerâ€™s insurance plan to see that it covers visiting matrons in case anything should happen. A BISS CH/CD/CGC should be covered for a minimum of $5K.

Since her cycle is so late, you'll need to purchase Solid Gold. I can't send enough in the crate. It generally runs $40 a bag. Be sure to get the Seameal, Pet Tabs Plus, Concept-A-b###h, and Red Raspberry Tea Leaves too. Also, she'll need 500 mg. of Ascorbic Acid, 200 mg. of Tocopherols twice a day with tepid water. Not too hot because she will grow finicky. Be careful not to give her A Palmitate since this can increase the chance of cleft palate and I don't want to have to cull. It's a good idea to give her organically grown-pesticide free calf liver. You'll need to prepare it yourself since she doesn't like pre-packaged brands. It's best to buy it in 50-lb. bulk and boil it all at once. Be sure to keep skimming the foam off every 15 minutes because she doesn't like it slimy. Bake it afterwards until it's a good baiting consistency then vacuum-pack and freeze it. The whole process should only take about 12 hours. In a hurry you could get it down to 10 hours.

You won't have to worry about splitting the vaccination costs for the litter. I give my own now and that will save you half of the normal $480 or so. You can help out with the title rebates if you'd like.

Your pick should be ready at 12 weeks. I'll let you know the whelping date so that you can plan the transportation. I assume you already own a Sherpa? That's the best way to go if you're out of CA, otherwise you can drive to pick it up--just bring along a Vari-Kennel.

What are your club affiliates? I don't recognize your email address off the top of my head. I'm DPCA, PDCA, and NCPC. If you're not PDCA, we can work on getting you your two letters of recommendation.

Well, let me know when you have all the necessary paperwork done. Also, please send me Jake's AKC certified 4 generation with coat colors and his best win shots so that I can make colored copies.

Warmest Regards,

Danielle M. Campi

And here's something I made up quite some time ago when someone asked if a breeder could make money off of 8 jack russel pups for $875 each:

Quote:
Okay, let's see. $875 times 8 is $7000. Both dam and sire should be health certitified before breeding.
Hips - $30
Elbows - $25
Thyroid - $15
Heart - $15
Patellar Luxation - $15
Deafness- $15
Eyes - $17.50 (because initial registration)
That is $132.50 .

Tests for Brucellosis (disease of reproductive tract) and Bortedella (STD) - $60

$40 to submit DNA test results to AKC. DNA test - $15

Solid Gold vitamins for bitch - $40

Stud fee for a Champion dog can be as high as $2000. Let's say $1000.

Bitch must go to the vet at around day 30. Alot of breeders like to use an ultrasound--another $200.

$1000 should be put aside for an emergency C-section.

At around day 50, you have to take days off of work to be around the expentant mother 24/7 to make sure nothing goes wrong. If you have a 9-5 job and an hourly wage of $15, you will lose around $1500. Then you have to stay with the dog and puppies until the puppies go home. 8 weeks - $6720

At 3 days, the puppies will need their first vet check, and the mother will need a check too. Each puppy will get dewclaws removed ($50 per puppy -- for 8 puppies that's $400). Rat terriers have their tails docked ($10.00 per tail, that's $80). Vaccination for eight puppies, $70 each, is $560. Deworming - $400. Puppies may need to be tested for skin problems, coccidia, and parvo -- $1000.

The breeder will need supplies before all of this happens. Whelping box, whelping box heating pad, incubator, weight scale, indoor puppy pen, first aid, emergency supplies, dishes. About $1000.

Food to feed puppies for two weeks - $40.

Registration fees for AKC - $400

Puppy kit to be sent home with new owner - $20 per puppy, $160 for 8 puppies.

I remember reading this before but had forgotten about it. Thank you! I printed it and will show it to her this weekend.

**luvofallhorses** · 04-14-2006, 05:55 PM

also show them this.. http://www.justonelitter.com good luck!

**bckrazy** · 04-14-2006, 06:29 PM

I really agree with Giselle... like always! ^^

And, honestly I had to

at the "why shouldn't they breed?" comment. LOL! why should they, is a better question. I don't have the time to name the reasons why people should not breed their family pets... there is a huge overpopulation of Huskies and GSD's in this country, they are in no way easy breeds, both need a ton of health tests as they're very prone to hip/elbow/eye problems and both can easily have aggression issues if placed in the wrong home.

**Lori Jordan** · 04-15-2006, 08:08 AM

First post was about her not wanting them too breed,and as a breeder i had just asked why..There is nothing wrong with that,and as too money more comes out of your pocket then comes in they should both be aware of that it is there responsibility to get them vet checked,shots and treated if they have any infections...It dont happen all the time but there is a good chance...A friend of mine had a manger like setting for her BC and the pups had eye infections it aint the buyers duty to get them treated.I hope she has changed her mind!

**buttercup132** · 04-15-2006, 08:29 AM

I definatly not for the breeding BUT if they did get all the medical and stuff checked and there dog turned out to be GOOD breed standard then they would make more money if the puppies turned out good rather then just pickign up a dog off the street....
But there are already TONS of Huskies in shelters there one dog that shouldnt be bred until most are from the shelters. And guys like Lori said this is how to convince Jen's people not to breed not to bash her pm her if you have something private to say. Irescue that thing you opsted was great.
Heres something I have

10) You like the idea of having a house overrun by dogs you were unable to sell.

9) You'd rather spend all your money on dog bills than buy that new faux fur coat/build the new house addition/get that new car/buy a boat, etc.

8) You get to spend all your spare time at the vet's office.

7) Making enemies with the neighbors is a big priority on your list of things to do.

6) You never wanted a yard with grass anyway--mud is so much more stylish.

5) Staying up all night bottle-feeding sick/orphaned/bitch-rejected puppies is your idea of a good time.

4) You savor the idea of having to explain to the kids why Fifi didn't come home after that one-way trip to the veterinarian during labor complications.

3) It will be fun watching the kids' expressions when you tell them that all the puppies they were so enthusiastically looking forward to having, died.

2) Chewed-up furniture, peed-on rugs, and fur everywhere is THE new "look" in home fashion.

And the number one reason to breed your dog is......

1) Adding to the huge number of genetically inferior/homeless/euthanized dogs is something you've always wanted to do.

**Leslie & Chessies** · 04-15-2006, 09:26 AM

Found this article on another forum.

The Backyard Breeders' and Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses

Written by Denna Pace.

1. When called on bad breeding practices, ALWAYS claim that you are merely an innocent posting as a favor to a friend or family member.

2. Point out that everybody you know breeds this way, therefore it must be okay.

3. Claim that "snobby show breeders" are only criticizing you because they want to corner the market on puppy profit.

4. Claim that a Champion in the pedigree is just as good as 56 Champions in the pedigree. Not that it matters, because you doubt that there is such a thing as a dog with 56 champions in the pedigree.

5. Claim that you are just trying to produce good pets, therefore good pets are all you need for breeding.

6. When asked about health testing, enthusiastically point out that your bitch had a health checkup before breeding.

7. Be sure to mention that you do not need to run such health tests as OFA, CERF, thyroid, cardiac, patellae, etc., because your dogs look healthy and had no visible problems at their last vet checkup.

8. Point out that these tests cost too much and would cut into your profit margin. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed dogs.

9. Confidently assure worried rescuers that no puppy you produce, or any of their puppies or grand puppies or great-grandpuppies will end up in shelters because you have a bunch of friends who have told you that they'd like a pup from your bitch.

10. Point out that you don't need Championships or working titles on your dogs because you are breeding for temperament and your dog is really sweet.

11. Silence those annoying people who ask about your health guarantee by assuring them that buyers can return any sick puppies and you will replace it with another pup as long as it got sick within a certain amount of time of sale and as long as you don't think the buyer did something to make the puppy sick.

12. If your breed or line is rare (or you have a "rare" color, or believe your breed or color is rare), be sure to remind everyone that you do not need to show, temperament test, or health test your breeding stock because you are doing the world a service by continuing this "rare" breed/color/line.

13. No matter what anyone else says, claim that you obviously know what you are doing because you've been breeding for a long time. Point to the hundreds of puppies you've pumped out over the years as proof.

14. If this is your first attempt at breeding, make sure to remind everyone that you HAVE to breed your dog because how else are you going to learn how to breed?

15. Assure everyone that your dog does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at Petsmart/the park/the vet's office/a friend that your dog is a perfect example of the breed.

16. Always remember that "rare" colors, oversized or undersized dogs, and mixes of popular breeds are great selling points. Anyone who doesn't think so is obviously not in tune with their customers' wishes.

17. Claim that your dogs are better because they are not inbred, as inbreeding obviously produces sick/stupid/deformed dogs. If breeding poo [as in "Cock-a-Poo," "Peek-a-Poo," etc.] dogs or other mutts, always point to "hybrid vigor" as proof of your dogs' superiority.

18. Remind everyone that you do not need a waiting list because your puppies are cute.

19. Assure everyone that your puppies will not end up in shelters because they are cute.

20. Claim that YOUR breed never ends up in shelters in your area, therefore your puppies will never end up in shelters.

21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club.

22. If you sell a sick puppy, always blame the owners for making it sick. If the owners are clearly not responsible, blame their vet. (see #11)

23. If presented with irrefutable evidence proving you wrong on any excuses you have used, pretend your server did not receive the post/e-mail.

24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder.

25. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to "get a life."

Written by Denna Pace . It was compiled by reading the horrible BYB ads on rec.pets.dogs.breed. Please credit when quoting.

**wolf_Q** · 04-15-2006, 09:35 AM

I think a lot of people see siberian huskies and such beautiful dogs they think they need to be bred. I've had many people stop me and ask if I breed Nebo, and they could get a puppy, etc. and acting like I'm an idiot for neutering him. What they don't realize is that siberian huskies can be very hard dogs to handle and they are not for inexperienced dog owners. This leads to tons of siberian huskies in shelters/rescues. I've seen *many* beautiful purebred huskies that look very similar to Nebo in rescues. I think sometimes people think oh if the dog is gorgeous and purebred it won't end up like that. WRONG. I think you should show her some siberian husky rescue websites to show just how many dogs just like hers are needing homes.

**dab_20** · 04-15-2006, 09:47 AM

I think everyone has given GREAT info about this subject, and I really hope they decide not to breed. But if they do, best of luck to the mother and her pups.