Shock collars

[Vela]

Dogs misbehave due to what people have either done to them or let them get away with.

Therein lies the problem. Dogs are not born knowing the difference between right and wrong. As their owners it is our obligation to teach them, and pain and negative reinforcement really isn't the way to go about it. If someone came into my home and scruffed my dog like has been described as being done to this dog, I would scruff them and show them the door. Real training takes times and patience. My dogs have never seen a shock collar, pinch collar, choker, or any form of abuse, hitting, or yelling, yet they both behave how I want them to and if they don't I spend my time teaching them what is expected, not yelling at them when they do it wrong. If a dog is too full of energy, that is because the owners aren't providing it with enough exercise and a job to do to burn off the excess energy. That is not the dog's fault and he should not be punished beause his owners don't want to take the time needed to exercise the dog. They aren't toys, they are living beings and it is OUR responsibility to train them how we expect them to behave for us. If a person can't do better than resorting to painful stimuli and negative reinforcement, they either need to find the help of a professional to show them how to train their dog properly, or they need to find that dog a new home with someone who will. Just because they make things like shock collars, doesn't mean it's in the dog's best interests.

[mruffruff]

When every other path has been followed and the dog is still not responding, a static shock to get their attention is not cruel, nor is it abuse. Continuous use would be.

The dog I used the collar on was a 10 year old stray that the shelter felt would never find a home. He was in poor shape when I got him and had a bad habit of jumping 6 foot fences. I finally got him healthy, housetrained, contained and accepting of people. I was his last hope and the neighbor next door was threatening his existence. This was a last ditch effort. And I don't feel guilty about using it in this instance. I have not needed it on the other three dogs I have had.

In a perfect world, the shock collar would never be necessary. Unfortunately I live in the real world. I've learned to be less judgmental as I've gotten older. And I never say "Never".

[JenBKR]

When every other path has been followed and the dog is still not responding, a static shock to get their attention is not cruel, nor is it abuse. Continuous use would be.

The dog I used the collar on was a 10 year old stray that the shelter felt would never find a home. He was in poor shape when I got him and had a bad habit of jumping 6 foot fences. I finally got him healthy, housetrained, contained and accepting of people. I was his last hope and the neighbor next door was threatening his existence. This was a last ditch effort. And I don't feel guilty about using it in this instance. I have not needed it on the other three dogs I have had.

In a perfect world, the shock collar would never be necessary. Unfortunately I live in the real world. I've learned to be less judgmental as I've gotten older. And I never say "Never".

Well said. Sometimes when you adopt an older dog from the shelter, you don't have the option of 'not letting them get away with their behavior.' When you have an older dog that misbehaves, and you try every possible route, then what? Some people take them back to the shelters. That is what happened with my Roscoe, he has behavioral problems and was taken back to the shelter by his last owner because they didn't want to have to deal with it. I tell you right now, we are going through the process of trying everything we can to get him to behave, but if worst comes to worst I would consider a shock collar. I would never take him back. I use a prong collar on him now for training (recommended by my trainer). I don't think that it's cruel at all, and it has helped more than you can imagine. When we first got him, I couldn't take him for walks along because he pulled me so hard he would drag me along (and yes, I did fall once or twice and he kept going, dragging me literally). Now, after basic training and the use of the prong, he heels by my side and is a pleasure to walk. Had that collar not been recommended to me by a trainer, I would have never bought it. It looks cruel. But now he can get the exercise he needs. Is that cruel?

[Dixieland Dancer]

I HATE shock collars and never recommend them. When I started training Dixie for hunting, those who had been doing it and were considered pros recommended I use a shock collar to train her. I was told that she would never be much of a hunter unless I did. I refused and instead worked her using positive reinforcement and clicker training. It may of taken a bit longer (not much) than shocking her but if you could see her hunting and the love she has for it, it was worth the extra time. She now has her Senior Hunter Title! Many of the dogs trained using collars have fear built in and it shows.

I believe shock collars are the lazy persons way out of training positively.

[ESS-lover]

I currently have a 16 mo old ESS up at a field trainer's kennel - and he has him on a shock collar at the lowest setting -- and only to 'break' concentration and have him follow a command i.e. COME! The boy now skeddadles right back when he hears come no matter what he's doing! He can not and will not be able to hunt as part of the 'team' unless he follows commands - it wouldn't be safe for him.

DH and I had considered using one before he went to field camp -- and nixed the idea because used improperly you will ruin a dog.

If you need to step up to a shock collar then have someone who knows how to properly use it train him. Try other methods first! Cowboy knows what the commands mean - it was just too darn interested in whatever he was chasing or sniffing to comply.

[flip195]

When every other path has been followed and the dog is still not responding, a static shock to get their attention is not cruel, nor is it abuse. Continuous use would be.

The dog I used the collar on was a 10 year old stray that the shelter felt would never find a home. He was in poor shape when I got him and had a bad habit of jumping 6 foot fences. I finally got him healthy, housetrained, contained and accepting of people. I was his last hope and the neighbor next door was threatening his existence. This was a last ditch effort. And I don't feel guilty about using it in this instance. I have not needed it on the other three dogs I have had.

In a perfect world, the shock collar would never be necessary. Unfortunately I live in the real world. I've learned to be less judgmental as I've gotten older. And I never say "Never".

Rule of thumb should be if you won't use it on a 2 year old child you don't use it on your dog plain and simple.
Training usingf positve reinforcement may take longer but works better.

[JenBKR]

Rule of thumb should be if you won't use it on a 2 year old child you don't use it on your dog plain and simple.
Training usingf positve reinforcement may take longer but works better.

So, how then should I have gotten my 93 lb. german shepherd to walk by my side and not run away without coming home, nor pulling my arm out of it's socket? I would not use a prong on a 2 year old, but I did on my dog, under my trainer's supervision, and it worked extremely well. Perhaps positive reinforcement would have worked eventually, I suppose in the meantime I would just not give him walks and exercise. Then I would have been a bad doggie parent for not giving him exercise. Um, ok......

[flip195]

So, how then should I have gotten my 93 lb. german shepherd to walk by my side and not run away without coming home, nor pulling my arm out of it's socket? I would not use a prong on a 2 year old, but I did on my dog, under my trainer's supervision, and it worked extremely well. Perhaps positive reinforcement would have worked eventually, I suppose in the meantime I would just not give him walks and exercise. Then I would have been a bad doggie parent for not giving him exercise. Um, ok......

15 mins a day sit heel work, in an enclosed area,

until he got it right,
make the dog sit when he does praise reward,
Take one step with the heel command and sit again & reward.
Gradually increase the steps taking always start and finish with sit.
start and end training with a game... make it fun... never work more than 15 mins at a time.

German shepherd should pick it up in about a week of 15 min sessions max.

[JenBKR]

15 mins a day sit heel work, in an enclosed area,

until he got it right,
make the dog sit when he does praise reward,
Take one step with the heel command and sit again & reward.
Gradually increase the steps taking always start and finish with sit.
start and end training with a game... make it fun... never work more than 15 mins at a time.

German shepherd should pick it up in about a week of 15 min sessions max.

Tried that, all last summer. Pretty much exactly as you put it (I did a lot of reseach). He was already 4 when we got him, and not at all well behaved. I worked with him a ton in the back yard. I even used treats (or tried, he has absolutely no interest in the treats when we are outside). Tons of praise, about 15-20 mins per day for 3-4 months. It did nothing. At the end of summer, I had to take him the the vet. I opened my car door, holding onto his leash. He jumped out of my door and took off - with me in tow. I ripped my jeans, scraped my face. At least I held on to him, because he has taken off before and he can be difficult to track down. I went in to the vet's office and asked for a recommendation for a trainer. Roscoe went through 8 weeks of training with a prong and graduated first in his class.

I know I went off of the topic of shock collars, but I think that the 'don't use something you wouldn't use on a two year old child' was not good advice (what 2-year old weighs 93 lbs? ). And you cannot generalize the breed, especially considering he's a mix. So what would you have done? Work with him another 3 months and hope for the best? Or take him back to the shelter? Sorry, but neither was an option.

EDIT: I should also mention that distractions made it extremely difficult to do the work you mentioned. He always wanted to chase the birds and bunnies, bark at cars, etc. Perhaps anything more about this should be said through PM, as I do not wish to further hijack this thread.

[JenBKR]

OK, just one more thing.....I personally would not put a collar and leash on a two year old either, so should we not even use those?